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bjelks
Post #46
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:29pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Philip

Hopefully it was just a typo but Altidore has 41 goals in 110 games not 14. Boyd has 0 USMNT goals and 0 Bundesliga goals. If you want to count his 2.Bundesliga goals than you count Altidores goals from AZ or do you claim the 2.Bundesliga to be superior quality as compared to the Eredivisie. That was 51 goals in 93 games if I'm not mistaken.


My apologies for the goal typo, but Jozy and Boyd both had strike rates of 1 goal for every 2 games in Holland and Austria. And I still believe with Boyd's quality he would've had similar if not better numbers with health and the same opportunities Jozy had. But hey I don't run a suburban elitist academy of scrubs, so what do I know.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #47
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:32pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Original post from bjelks

My apologies for the goal typo, but Jozy and Boyd both had strike rates of 1 goal for every 2 games in Holland and Austria. And I still believe with Boyd's quality he would've had similar if not better numbers with health and the same opportunities Jozy had. But hey I don't run a suburban elitist academy of scrubs, so what do I know.


Philip
Post #48
Thursday August 2, 2018 8:09pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from bjelks

My apologies for the goal typo, but Jozy and Boyd both had strike rates of 1 goal for every 2 games in Holland and Austria. And I still believe with Boyd's quality he would've had similar if not better numbers with health and the same opportunities Jozy had. But hey I don't run a suburban elitist academy of scrubs, so what do I know.

Boyd scored 37 goals in 80 games which if my math is correct is 1 goal every 2.16 games. Altidore scored 51 goals in 93 or 1 goal every 1.82 games. Those both came over the course of 2 seasons, Altidore clearly was more productive. We can say the two leagues are comparable just to keep it simple. Altidore was a better player, he got the playing time with the USMNT because he deserved it based on performance and not because of politics as you claim. All goals count for one regardless of how they are scored anyway. You discount Altidore because of what you claim are tap-in goals but at the same time say Donovan was our second best player when he went 2 years without scoring a goal from open play. All he did was score penalty kicks, but that doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore it. At the end of the day none of those guys are good enough if we want to challenge for a World Cup someday so it doesn't really matter. We need better players and a career 2.Bundesliga player simply isn't good enough.

Lilshmike
Post #49
Thursday August 2, 2018 8:18pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863


bjelks
Post #50
Thursday August 2, 2018 8:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Philip

Boyd scored 37 goals in 80 games which if my math is correct is 1 goal every 2.16 games. Altidore scored 51 goals in 93 or 1 goal every 1.82 games. Those both came over the course of 2 seasons, Altidore clearly was more productive. We can say the two leagues are comparable just to keep it simple. Altidore was a better player, he got the playing time with the USMNT because he deserved it based on performance and not because of politics as you claim. All goals count for one regardless of how they are scored anyway. You discount Altidore because of what you claim are tap-in goals but at the same time say Donovan was our second best player when he went 2 years without scoring a goal from open play. All he did was score penalty kicks, but that doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore it. At the end of the day none of those guys are good enough if we want to challenge for a World Cup someday so it doesn't really matter. We need better players and a career 2.Bundesliga player simply isn't good enough.


I'm not going to agree that there is a clear difference in talent between someone that scores every 2.16 games and 1.82, but you can have it. Wondo was on the team because of politics, so was Beckerman, so was Gordon, so was Gonzo, let's face it they exist.
For clarification, I don't think Donovan was our second best player because of goals scored but for his first touch, ability to take defenders on, ability to play dangerous balls in the box and have a dangerous shot from range. I'm looking at his ability to impact the game comprehensively.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #51
Thursday August 2, 2018 8:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Original post from bjelks

I'm not going to agree that there is a clear difference in talent between someone that scores every 2.16 games and 1.82, but you can have it. Wondo was on the team because of politics, so was Beckerman, so was Gordon, so was Gonzo, let's face it they exist.
For clarification, I don't think Donovan was our second best player because of goals scored but for his first touch, ability to take defenders on, ability to play dangerous balls in the box and have a dangerous shot from range. I'm looking at his ability to impact the game comprehensively.


Philip
Post #52
Thursday August 2, 2018 8:56pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from bjelks

I'm not going to agree that there is a clear difference in talent between someone that scores every 2.16 games and 1.82, but you can have it. Wondo was on the team because of politics, so was Beckerman, so was Gordon, so was Gonzo, let's face it they exist.
For clarification, I don't think Donovan was our second best player because of goals scored but for his first touch, ability to take defenders on, ability to play dangerous balls in the box and have a dangerous shot from range. I'm looking at his ability to impact the game comprehensively.

There doesn't have to be a clear difference in talent, there is a clear undeniable difference in production and at the end of the day that is what matters. If we were talking teenagers then talent matters but we aren't. These guys are the finished product, they aren't getting any better regardless of what league or country they are playing in. Whatever the reasons for Wondo or anyone else to be on the team are irrelevant. We aren't talking Beckerman vs Morales here. You are deflecting because in all objective measures Altidore was superior to Boyd and that will never change. I will say this though if Boyd had superior talent then that is reason for him to be kept as far away from the young guys on the team now as possible. Altidore did more with less, he had less talent, less drive, weaker mentality, poor work rate and yet he still produced more than Boyd. Based on your analysis of their talent, Boyd clearly has some other issue that prevents him from succeeding. I don't want him teaching any of these kids to be like him. I would rather they learn to perform above their talent level like Altidore did. We might have our first true American soccer star.

Lilshmike
Post #53
Thursday August 2, 2018 9:03pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Original post from Philip

There doesn't have to be a clear difference in talent, there is a clear undeniable difference in production and at the end of the day that is what matters. If we were talking teenagers then talent matters but we aren't. These guys are the finished product, they aren't getting any better regardless of what league or country they are playing in. Whatever the reasons for Wondo or anyone else to be on the team are irrelevant. We aren't talking Beckerman vs Morales here. You are deflecting because in all objective measures Altidore was superior to Boyd and that will never change. I will say this though if Boyd had superior talent then that is reason for him to be kept as far away from the young guys on the team now as possible. Altidore did more with less, he had less talent, less drive, weaker mentality, poor work rate and yet he still produced more than Boyd. Based on your analysis of their talent, Boyd clearly has some other issue that prevents him from succeeding. I don't want him teaching any of these kids to be like him. I would rather they learn to perform above their talent level like Altidore did. We might have our first true American soccer star.


Know Nothing
Post #54
Thursday August 2, 2018 9:56pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,472
Hmmm looks conspicuously like lilshmike and Philip are the same person with multiple handles.

And while enjoy the debate on here, do we really have to resort to meme's to discredit someones point of view?

But in the end production in a particular league does not really matter...it is how you fit into the national team. Look at Jason Kreis...prolific scorer at the MLS level while he couldn't do crap on the international stage (Taylor Twellman as well).

Altidore fit with the old team because he grew up in MLS and a good number of the team were products of the same. The makeup of the current squad is more European so perhaps Boyd fits better? Only one way to truly find out.

Lilshmike
Post #55
Thursday August 2, 2018 9:58pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Haha I can assure you that we are not one in the same. I am just enjoying this too much. I'll tone it down on the memes.

Philip
Post #56
Thursday August 2, 2018 10:03pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from Know Nothing

Hmmm looks conspicuously like lilshmike and Philip are the same person with multiple handles.

And while enjoy the debate on here, do we really have to resort to meme's to discredit someones point of view?

But in the end production in a particular league does not really matter...it is how you fit into the national team. Look at Jason Kreis...prolific scorer at the MLS level while he couldn't do crap on the international stage (Taylor Twellman as well).

Altidore fit with the old team because he grew up in MLS and a good number of the team were products of the same. The makeup of the current squad is more European so perhaps Boyd fits better? Only one way to truly find out.

Haha. Definitely not the same person.

db707
Post #57
Thursday August 2, 2018 11:12pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 720
Good posts, though, Philip. Welcome (to posting).

Philip
Post #58
Friday August 3, 2018 1:16am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from db707

Good posts, though, Philip. Welcome (to posting).

Thanks. I enjoy a good debate.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #59
Friday August 3, 2018 3:35am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 252
Original post from Philip

There doesn't have to be a clear difference in talent, there is a clear undeniable difference in production and at the end of the day that is what matters. If we were talking teenagers then talent matters but we aren't. These guys are the finished product, they aren't getting any better regardless of what league or country they are playing in. Whatever the reasons for Wondo or anyone else to be on the team are irrelevant. We aren't talking Beckerman vs Morales here. You are deflecting because in all objective measures Altidore was superior to Boyd and that will never change. I will say this though if Boyd had superior talent then that is reason for him to be kept as far away from the young guys on the team now as possible. Altidore did more with less, he had less talent, less drive, weaker mentality, poor work rate and yet he still produced more than Boyd. Based on your analysis of their talent, Boyd clearly has some other issue that prevents him from succeeding. I don't want him teaching any of these kids to be like him. I would rather they learn to perform above their talent level like Altidore did. We might have our first true American soccer star.


I don't want Jozy to teach the kids how to walk around while losing to Trinidad with zero urgency. At this point we need to play the core group of younger guys,

Green, Weah, Sergeant, at a minimum then add in the fringe younger guys. Really I don't want to see even see Wood in the txt few games (although he should still be included come hex time).

I simply do not want to see Jozy for a long time-not sure he will fit in with this group, the younger kids are more technical-Jozy has a bad 1st touch. He will slow our attack down.

He was given so many chances and starts for the Nats-time to move on for foreseeable future and let the young guns develop
Stoked
Philip
Post #60
Friday August 3, 2018 3:47am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from stoked3

I don't want Jozy to teach the kids how to walk around while losing to Trinidad with zero urgency. At this point we need to play the core group of younger guys,

Green, Weah, Sergeant, at a minimum then add in the fringe younger guys. Really I don't want to see even see Wood in the txt few games (although he should still be included come hex time).

I simply do not want to see Jozy for a long time-not sure he will fit in with this group, the younger kids are more technical-Jozy has a bad 1st touch. He will slow our attack down.

He was given so many chances and starts for the Nats-time to move on for foreseeable future and let the young guns develop

I'm not advocating for Altidore to be on the team now, I'm saying no to Boyd. I actually agree that the young guys need to be given the bulk of the playing time now. Not making the World Cup sucks but in a way it was a good thing. These young guys would not have gotten the experience that they have been getting otherwise.

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