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db707
Post #31
Wednesday August 1, 2018 10:34pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 575
Original post from bjelks

I understand I struck a nerve by putting some realistic context in the assessment of the quality your biased favorite league and national team compared to international standards, but I wouldn't want you anywhere near assessment or analysis of football quality outside of America.


How did you strike a nerve? I was the one making fun of you. As others have noted, your arguments (weighed down by the logical fallacy of starting with a conclusion and saying anything you can in a desperate attempt to support it) are not to be taken seriously, so I won't.

cudevil
Post #32
Thursday August 2, 2018 2:53am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 606
Original post from bjelks

If Jozy is valued at 3x Boyd, how come no one has bidded anything to buy him?
Rhetorical, he's washed, soft, and spineless. Why else would he transfer to a lower league and a big pay day and his prime? But hey, American good old boy favor.


And of course the same question could be asked about Boyd. Supposedly better in every way than a guy that has actually performed at WCs and high level leagues, and cheaper, and yet stuck at Darmstadt, barely playing.

They aren't bidding on Jozy, because he would be expensive, and he's not a prospect anymore. Christ, this isn't difficult.

I'd also point out that I'm not even advocating that Jozy be a part of the set up going forward. But what's painfully obvious is that Boyd isn't better than Jozy and shouldn't be considered either.

bjelks
Post #33
Thursday August 2, 2018 1:22pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 588
Original post from db707

How did you strike a nerve? I was the one making fun of you. As others have noted, your arguments (weighed down by the logical fallacy of starting with a conclusion and saying anything you can in a desperate attempt to support it) are not to be taken seriously, so I won't.


Like I said, if you're not taking me seriously, why are you giving me so much energy?
Just because I don't subscribe to your good old boy American elitist train of thought and fan boy out over guys pacified by America's prejudice and corrupt soccer system, doesn't make my points illogical. I think it's more illogical to believe whatever Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and Sunil tell you. If you can't assess the quality of a player with your own eyes and research, maybe you should leave that to the more informed soccer minds.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #34
Thursday August 2, 2018 1:39pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 588
Original post from cudevil

And of course the same question could be asked about Boyd. Supposedly better in every way than a guy that has actually performed at WCs and high level leagues, and cheaper, and yet stuck at Darmstadt, barely playing.

They aren't bidding on Jozy, because he would be expensive, and he's not a prospect anymore. Christ, this isn't difficult.

I'd also point out that I'm not even advocating that Jozy be a part of the set up going forward. But what's painfully obvious is that Boyd isn't better than Jozy and shouldn't be considered either.


@cudevil Being picked for a WC is more about Manager preference than actual ability. America has been the most criticized country in the world when it comes to assessing talent and federation corruption in picking teams. FYI, Jozy has never scored or assisted in a WC.

Older players that are no longer prospects still have bids when they are valued. Obviously he's not.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not advocating for Boyd, but my eyes and the eyes of anyone that has a soccer brain and can think for themselves can tell you he has the quality, mentality, work rate to compete at a high level. Boyd's problem has been injuries, Jozy's problem has been mentality, work rate, quality. Some times you have to watch a player and step away from the numbers to rate.
The biggest difference between Boyd and Jozy is Boyd is one good healthy year away from competing in Bundesliga again or Premier League which would merit a call up.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #35
Thursday August 2, 2018 1:47pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624
Original post from bjelks

Like I said, if you're not taking me seriously, why are you giving me so much energy?
Just because I don't subscribe to your good old boy American elitist train of thought and fan boy out over guys pacified by America's prejudice and corrupt soccer system, doesn't make my points illogical. I think it's more illogical to believe whatever Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and Sunil tell you. If you can't assess the quality of a player with your own eyes and research, maybe you should leave that to the more informed soccer minds.
Here you go again with the condescending statements. Not a single person brought up Gulati, Bradley, or Arena. I specifically stated that it pained me to include Jozy, but that we can't ignore his existence. I even brought you research on things that YOU SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR to analyze those two players. They countered your argument, exposed it as weak, so you pivot and try imply that we don't have sophisticated soccer minds because we are elitist US Soccer fanboys. But hey, Europe!

Seriously tho, you're a joke. I tried to warn you on other threads that people would start tuning you out with the nonsense you've been spewing, the straw man arguments you present, and the condescending statements and name calling. You're digging a hole that you won't be able to climb out of.

Slow ya roll, tone it down, or get off the boards. Either that, or start a thread.

Lilshmike
Post #36
Thursday August 2, 2018 1:57pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624
Original post from bjelks

@cudevil Being picked for a WC is more about Manager preference than actual ability. America has been the most criticized country in the world when it comes to assessing talent and federation corruption in picking teams. FYI, Jozy has never scored or assisted in a WC.

Older players that are no longer prospects still have bids when they are valued. Obviously he's not.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not advocating for Boyd, but my eyes and the eyes of anyone that has a soccer brain and can think for themselves can tell you he has the quality, mentality, work rate to compete at a high level. Boyd's problem has been injuries, Jozy's problem has been mentality, work rate, quality. Some times you have to watch a player and step away from the numbers to rate.
The biggest difference between Boyd and Jozy is Boyd is one good healthy year away from competing in Bundesliga again or Premier League which would merit a call up.
1) So USSF is the most corrupt soccer federation in the world? Criticized the most for player selections? So we are more corrupt than Caribbean and African nations who have been caught up in cash payments and match fixing? How about Brazil and England basically anytime they pick a squad? Germany for leaving out Leroy Sane at the WC? Yeah... you're not accurate at all.

2) Older players still have bids... well... Boyd still hasn't even got any bids worth noting and his biggest transfer was to a 2 Bundesliga side (thats where RB Leipzig was when he went there from Rapid). So... yeah.

3) You bring up stats as a measurement of worth, then say we have to watch with our eyes to rate players... well, I've seen Jozy score many more goals than Boyd with my eyes. I've seen Boyd go from having a promising future and thinking he was the next big thing, to getting an injury and not being able to return to the player he once was. When you see 2 guys who are the same age and are athletically and skillfully comparable, you typically pick the guy with more experience. I've seen Jozy wearing a US jersey and scoring goals WAYYYYYYY more than Boyd. That's what my eyes tell me.

Like, seriously dude... you're getting roasted out here from all sides.

db707
Post #37
Thursday August 2, 2018 3:15pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 575
Original post from bjelks

Like I said, if you're not taking me seriously, why are you giving me so much energy?
Just because I don't subscribe to your good old boy American elitist train of thought and fan boy out over guys pacified by America's prejudice and corrupt soccer system, doesn't make my points illogical. I think it's more illogical to believe whatever Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and Sunil tell you. If you can't assess the quality of a player with your own eyes and research, maybe you should leave that to the more informed soccer minds.


I explained why your points are illogical, because they aren't backed up by facts, or even by the assessment of European evaluators. This is sad, dude. You should re-evaluate your life. Moving on.

bjelks
Post #38
Thursday August 2, 2018 6:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 588
Original post from Lilshmike

Here you go again with the condescending statements. Not a single person brought up Gulati, Bradley, or Arena. I specifically stated that it pained me to include Jozy, but that we can't ignore his existence. I even brought you research on things that YOU SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR to analyze those two players. They countered your argument, exposed it as weak, so you pivot and try imply that we don't have sophisticated soccer minds because we are elitist US Soccer fanboys. But hey, Europe!

Seriously tho, you're a joke. I tried to warn you on other threads that people would start tuning you out with the nonsense you've been spewing, the straw man arguments you present, and the condescending statements and name calling. You're digging a hole that you won't be able to climb out of.

Slow ya roll, tone it down, or get off the boards. Either that, or start a thread.


Your research didn't tell the complete stories of their careers, abilities, or answer all my questions. You were able to find weak data that supported your narrative then ran behind some other mls fan boys that want to ban dual nationals and Euro players from a national program that needs them.

Seriously, it's a joke that you're threatened by anyone that can assess talent better than you or doesn't depend on the US federation to tell you what think.

You're not the board police. Let's keep it football and stop being sensitive. If you want to tune out the light that I'm shedding on the national program, stop writing me romance novels and ignore me.

If you want to talk numbers Jozy scored 3 goals in 70 games in the premier league and transferred to MLS. He has 14 US goals in 110 games, both of those strike rates are abysmal.
Boyd has 7 goals in 35 games between Bundesliga 1 and 2 and 14 US games, while currently seeking promotion to Bundesliga. If you really think those numbers indicate that Jozy is better player or trending at the same rate of Boyd, who's had his share of lengthy injuries be my guest.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #39
Thursday August 2, 2018 6:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624


Philip
Post #40
Thursday August 2, 2018 6:54pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 12
Original post from bjelks

Your research didn't tell the complete stories of their careers, abilities, or answer all my questions. You were able to find weak data that supported your narrative then ran behind some other mls fan boys that want to ban dual nationals and Euro players from a national program that needs them.

Seriously, it's a joke that you're threatened by anyone that can assess talent better than you or doesn't depend on the US federation to tell you what think.

You're not the board police. Let's keep it football and stop being sensitive. If you want to tune out the light that I'm shedding on the national program, stop writing me romance novels and ignore me.

If you want to talk numbers Jozy scored 3 goals in 70 games in the premier league and transferred to MLS. He has 14 US goals in 110 games, both of those strike rates are abysmal.
Boyd has 7 goals in 35 games between Bundesliga 1 and 2 and 14 US games, while currently seeking promotion to Bundesliga. If you really think those numbers indicate that Jozy is better player or trending at the same rate of Boyd, who's had his share of lengthy injuries be my guest.

Hopefully it was just a typo but Altidore has 41 goals in 110 games not 14. Boyd has 0 USMNT goals and 0 Bundesliga goals. If you want to count his 2.Bundesliga goals than you count Altidores goals from AZ or do you claim the 2.Bundesliga to be superior quality as compared to the Eredivisie. That was 51 goals in 93 games if I'm not mistaken.

Lilshmike
Post #41
Thursday August 2, 2018 6:58pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624
Original post from Philip

Hopefully it was just a typo but Altidore has 41 goals in 110 games not 14. Boyd has 0 USMNT goals and 0 Bundesliga goals. If you want to count his 2.Bundesliga goals than you count Altidores goals from AZ or do you claim the 2.Bundesliga to be superior quality as compared to the Eredivisie. That was 51 goals in 93 games if I'm not mistaken.



bjelks
Post #42
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 588
Original post from Lilshmike

1) So USSF is the most corrupt soccer federation in the world? Criticized the most for player selections? So we are more corrupt than Caribbean and African nations who have been caught up in cash payments and match fixing? How about Brazil and England basically anytime they pick a squad? Germany for leaving out Leroy Sane at the WC? Yeah... you're not accurate at all.

2) Older players still have bids... well... Boyd still hasn't even got any bids worth noting and his biggest transfer was to a 2 Bundesliga side (thats where RB Leipzig was when he went there from Rapid). So... yeah.

3) You bring up stats as a measurement of worth, then say we have to watch with our eyes to rate players... well, I've seen Jozy score many more goals than Boyd with my eyes. I've seen Boyd go from having a promising future and thinking he was the next big thing, to getting an injury and not being able to return to the player he once was. When you see 2 guys who are the same age and are athletically and skillfully comparable, you typically pick the guy with more experience. I've seen Jozy wearing a US jersey and scoring goals WAYYYYYYY more than Boyd. That's what my eyes tell me.

Like, seriously dude... you're getting roasted out here from all sides.


1). How about the American pay for play development system tbst keeps working class people and majority minorities out? How about a league that discourages playing talented young players because clubs and youth academies don't get compensation? How about having a manager in JK that left out the second best attacking player Donovan because he wouldn't kiss up to him?
How about a manager in Arena that said he didn't want to play 1st team Euro young players or dual nationals? We're way too bad of a natl team to have so many politics and corruption impacting the program?

2) Neither Jozy or Boyd have any bids at the moment, but at least Boyd is one good year away from being a Bundesliga or Premier League player. Jozy wins cups and scores in MLS and only MLS fan boys care.

3) Again, wearing the US Jersey is political and favor is given to guys who developed in the US youth system, so we can take that with a grain of salt. As for his goals, they've mainly been tap ins and cherry picks from CONCACAF teams. Lastly, Boyd has mainly played in a reserve role with the 2nd team due to injuries and lack of familiarity with US managers. But it's funny to me, your eyes haven't told you that Jozy has a tendency to stop running when he isn't fed the ball, to lose or whiff the ball in the final 3rd or miss open net tap ins frequently against comparable competition.
If you can't look at a player and assess in game quality or understand injuries affect your availability not necessarily ability, I can't take you seriously.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #43
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624
Original post from bjelks

1). How about the American pay for play development system tbst keeps working class people and majority minorities out? How about a league that discourages playing talented young players because clubs and youth academies don't get compensation? How about having a manager in JK that left out the second best attacking player Donovan because he wouldn't kiss up to him?
How about a manager in Arena that said he didn't want to play 1st team Euro young players or dual nationals? We're way too bad of a natl team to have so many politics and corruption impacting the program?

2) Neither Jozy or Boyd have any bids at the moment, but at least Boyd is one good year away from being a Bundesliga or Premier League player. Jozy wins cups and scores in MLS and only MLS fan boys care.

3) Again, wearing the US Jersey is political and favor is given to guys who developed in the US youth system, so we can take that with a grain of salt. As for his goals, they've mainly been tap ins and cherry picks from CONCACAF teams. Lastly, Boyd has mainly played in a reserve role with the 2nd team due to injuries and lack of familiarity with US managers. But it's funny to me, your eyes haven't told you that Jozy has a tendency to stop running when he isn't fed the ball, to lose or whiff the ball in the final 3rd or miss open net tap ins frequently against comparable competition.
If you can't look at a player and assess in game quality or understand injuries affect your availability not necessarily ability, I can't take you seriously.


bjelks
Post #44
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 588
Original post from db707

I explained why your points are illogical, because they aren't backed up by facts, or even by the assessment of European evaluators. This is sad, dude. You should re-evaluate your life. Moving on.


The evaluators from the Daily Mail a British paper rated Jozy as the worst premier league player of all time in 2015. Move on and re-evaluate your sense of logic.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #45
Thursday August 2, 2018 7:25pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 624
Original post from bjelks

The evaluators from the Daily Mail a British paper rated Jozy as the worst premier league player of all time in 2015. Move on and re-evaluate your sense of logic.


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