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Know Nothing
Post #16
Tuesday June 12, 2018 6:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,325
Food for thought...what if the only way Adams gets minutes at RBL is as a Right back and someone takes a significant step forward as a midfieldersuch as Parks?

Where would Adams fit into the equation versus Moore and Yedlin...especially if he is getting Bundesliga minutes?

Lilshmike
Post #17
Tuesday June 12, 2018 6:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 579
Original post from bjelks

Yedlin isn't bigger than Moore. Moore is actually taller and weighs more. Moore is just as fast. Yedlin's lack of discipline earned him a red card against Paraguay in the last Copa making a reckless challenge when he could have used his speed to get back in a defensive position.
He's absolutely not more versatile going forward. Like I stated, no matter what league he's in, he has a tendency to back pass, turnover or long ball under pressure. No matter how much experience he has, his technique will not improve at this pt and he will never be more comfortable with the ball at this feet. If a defender stands him up, his tendency is to back pass. Moore trusts his technique to turn defenders. I'm not saying Yedlin isn't a useful player for us but Moore has much more upside and you can see it with his he handles being pressured.

With Beckerman, I rather someone who makes a mistake trying to make a play like D Will rather than someone who makes a mistake because they are too slow, too weak, lacking quickness, or technique. When you have more ability like D Will, you can roam more because you have the ability to recover and you make the team better because you add an offensive threat and another body that can press. DWill is the same player he was 4 yrs ago, he just plays in the premier league today so he has higher profile. The reason he didn't play in prem 4 yrs ago wasn't ability, but favor with a prem Manager so he had to prove himself in championship.

Soccer is not complicated. The team with the combination of best athletes, skill, and discipline will win.
Williams is absolutely better now than he was 4 years ago. Its a joke to think otherwise.

Not trying to rag on you dude, but you clearly lack an understanding of tactics. Beckerman was a holding mid, sitting deep in midfield to allow others to roam. By saying you prefer Williams in that role AT THAT TIME, while also saying that you rather him make a mistake by trying to make a play than being slow... yeah.

Lets put it this way. Williams tries to make a play in our defensive half or in front of our box (since hes sitting deep) and gives the ball away to the opposition, thus giving them an opportunity on goal... thats bad. You cannot plan for that type of inconsistency and its a liability. Especially when results/goal differential matter over the course of 3 games. One goal could be the difference between advancing out of the group stage or not.

Beckerman on the other hand, who doesnt make mistakes and whose shortcoming is speed, can be planned for. That is called consistency. You can adjust the personnel around him and the role he plays to minimize that weakness. You know what you're going to get from him.

Honestly, dude... put things in perspective. Right now, yes, Williams is one of our best mids. Hes better and more CONSISTENT than he was before. But 4 years ago... no.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #18
Tuesday June 12, 2018 7:31pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,373
I don't know who it will be, but in 4 years time we'll have a better more well rounded player than Yedlin starting at RB. Yedlin is very good, but he's a bridge to the next level we need at RB in 4 years.

The future RB will read the game better, be a better passer...a more intuitive player up field...with comparable defensive ability.

bjelks
Post #19
Tuesday June 12, 2018 7:51pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 546
Original post from Lilshmike

Williams is absolutely better now than he was 4 years ago. Its a joke to think otherwise.

Not trying to rag on you dude, but you clearly lack an understanding of tactics. Beckerman was a holding mid, sitting deep in midfield to allow others to roam. By saying you prefer Williams in that role AT THAT TIME, while also saying that you rather him make a mistake by trying to make a play than being slow... yeah.

Lets put it this way. Williams tries to make a play in our defensive half or in front of our box (since hes sitting deep) and gives the ball away to the opposition, thus giving them an opportunity on goal... thats bad. You cannot plan for that type of inconsistency and its a liability. Especially when results/goal differential matter over the course of 3 games. One goal could be the difference between advancing out of the group stage or not.

Beckerman on the other hand, who doesnt make mistakes and whose shortcoming is speed, can be planned for. That is called consistency. You can adjust the personnel around him and the role he plays to minimize that weakness. You know what you're going to get from him.

Honestly, dude... put things in perspective. Right now, yes, Williams is one of our best mids. Hes better and more CONSISTENT than he was before. But 4 years ago... no.


It's a joke if you don't understand that D Will has the same skill, athleticism, and tactical awareness as he did 4 yrs ago. The only difference is that he was able to go through a promotion battle and impress Prem managers, so now ppl like you that don't understand the politics and bias involved in management recognize his talent. Even 4 yrs ago D Will played in a league and on a team that Becks wasn't good enough for.

Not trying to rag on you dude, but you're clearly not an athlete and don't understand that players in a game like soccer players who are more skilled and better athletes have more margin for error because they can cover more ground, recover, keep possession, and win more 50/50s. Beckerman's lack of speed, quickness, and technique put the center backs under constant pressure that resulted into goals.

To say that Beckerman didn't make mistakes, when he was beaten often, turned the ball over often, and muscled off the ball often is delusional. Beckerman and Wondo were tied with being the biggest liabilities and worst picks in US WC history.

It's suicidal and idiotic management to say I want a def mid that cant cover much ground, defend 1v1, or play out of the back because he has discipline or just won't cover much ground lol.

And to back the proposed tactics of a manager that didn't pick a backup striker, a competent def mid, and left off our greatest play maker of all time is insanity.
goalsense
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #20
Tuesday June 12, 2018 7:54pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 646
Original post from bjelks

It just seems very much of an Uneducated American fan to talk about games started when someone else mentions skill and technique, which has nothing to do with games started.

We've established that Yedlin plays regularly for Newcastle, because of his raw athleticism. We've also established that he uses this athleticism to compensate for technical shortcomings. As someone who's watched a lot of Yedlin games over the years, I can tell you he has tendencies to back pass, long ball, or turnover under pressure, which is the difference between a bottom tier premier league player and a Europa or Champs League player. They have better technique, so they are more comfortable with the ball under pressure. You don't need a large sample size from Moore to see this.


Not only don't you seem to watch the games you don't seem to read the posts that you respond to. I have watched both play and my eyes tell me that Moore is not yet clearly better than Yedlin. Yedlin has a lot of high level experience as a starter and Moore does not. People want to anoint guys as the new number one after watching 2 friendlies. I am saying Moore probably isn't in the top 4 yet due to his inexperience. I hope he breaks into the full squad as a starter this year then I guess well see. Just FYI I coach an elite travel soccer team so I do have some experience evaluating talent. That does not make me any better than you so I have never mentioned it before, however your continuous condescending attitude towards everyone brought it out.

Lilshmike
Post #21
Tuesday June 12, 2018 8:27pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 579
"It's a joke if you don't understand that D Will has the same skill, athleticism, and tactical awareness as he did 4 yrs ago."
^^^ So are you saying that players don't get better and improve over time? I've been watching Williams since he was at Hoffenheim. Hes absolutely better now than he was then.

"Not trying to rag on you dude, but you're clearly not an athlete and don't understand that players in a game like soccer players who are more skilled and better athletes have more margin for error because they can cover more ground, recover, keep possession, and win more 50/50s."
^^^ I don't really understand this. Errors, more times than not, come down to poor decision making. Make a risky pass when you shouldn't have, bad decision. Go in for a tackle when the man has already beat you, bad decision. You decide to run to a different part of the field than where your positions is, then not track back and mark, bad decision.

"Beckerman's lack of speed, quickness, and technique put the center backs under constant pressure that resulted into goals. To say that Beckerman didn't make mistakes, when he was beaten often, turned the ball over often, and muscled off the ball often is delusional. "
^^^ Send a link in this thread to the highlight of a goal that he was directly responsible for in the WC.

"It's suicidal and idiotic management to say I want a def mid that cant cover much ground, defend 1v1, or play out of the back because he has discipline or just won't cover much ground lol."
^^^ Defensive mids aren't supposed to cover much ground. Thats the point. They sit in front of the back line and connect play from the back to the mids in front of them. Beckerman could AT THAT TIME cover ground and play out of the back just fine, he just wasnt fast. Sitting in the middle, you can afford that because most fast players are out wide or high up the field... beyond the area where he is to cover. The slowest players on most top professional teams typically play in the middle... specifically holding mid. So, yeah...

"And to back the proposed tactics of a manager that didn't pick a backup striker, a competent def mid, and left off our greatest play maker of all time is insanity."
^^^ Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Klinsmann was never once mentioned in my post. I'm not backing his tactics, only pointing out that Beckerman AT THAT TIME was more reliable than Williams, and fit the position that was required (since the box to box mid role was filled by Bradley) better.

Lilshmike
Post #22
Tuesday June 12, 2018 8:55pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 579
@bjelks
"And to back the proposed tactics of a manager that didn't pick a backup striker, a competent def mid, and left off our greatest play maker of all time is insanity."

Just wanted to add to this. In case anyone didn't know, Klinsmann made his squad decision based off of statistics. He is a stat freak. He took statistics on every player over every drill, scrimmage, practice session, then looked at the players who were the most successful/had the best winning percentage/were (statistically speaking for their position) the best and most consistent.

This is a fact. I know, because I know people who were part of that camp (both coaches and players) and that is what they told me. What people don't realize is that Landon Donovan finished at the absolute bottom of that list. How that happened, I don't know. But by the stats they recorded, he was the least successful person in the camp.

I don't endorse that exactly, and I thought it was ridiculous/personal vendetta why Donovan wasn't selected, but just thought I would point that out since you brought up that statement.

...Oh yeah, and he did have a backup striker. Johannsson, Wondo, Jozy, Deuce were strikers. Jozy pulled a hammy in the first game. Johannsson broke his ankle before the tournament started then flared it up in the first game. Deuce took over the sole responsibility. Wondo became the backup. He selected 4 strikers (typical for a 23 man roster). We just had bad luck with 2 getting hurt in the first match. Do your homework.

bjelks
Post #23
Tuesday June 12, 2018 10:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 546
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Not only don't you seem to watch the games you don't seem to read the posts that you respond to. I have watched both play and my eyes tell me that Moore is not yet clearly better than Yedlin. Yedlin has a lot of high level experience as a starter and Moore does not. People want to anoint guys as the new number one after watching 2 friendlies. I am saying Moore probably isn't in the top 4 yet due to his inexperience. I hope he breaks into the full squad as a starter this year then I guess well see. Just FYI I coach an elite travel soccer team so I do have some experience evaluating talent. That does not make me any better than you so I have never mentioned it before, however your continuous condescending attitude towards everyone brought it out.


We can agree to disagree on what our eyes tells us, but I certainly don't believe there's a correlation between experience and technical skill. For example, Mbappe has less professional experience than Yedlin and has never played in a WC but is significantly better technically.
Because experience has nothing to do with your ability to dribble, pass, trap, shoot. Their are certainly youth players that can do all those things better than pros. USA has some of the worst youth development in the world, so I don't know what to make of an elite travel team's manager.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #24
Tuesday June 12, 2018 11:09pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 546
Original post from Lilshmike

"It's a joke if you don't understand that D Will has the same skill, athleticism, and tactical awareness as he did 4 yrs ago."
^^^ So are you saying that players don't get better and improve over time? I've been watching Williams since he was at Hoffenheim. Hes absolutely better now than he was then.

"Not trying to rag on you dude, but you're clearly not an athlete and don't understand that players in a game like soccer players who are more skilled and better athletes have more margin for error because they can cover more ground, recover, keep possession, and win more 50/50s."
^^^ I don't really understand this. Errors, more times than not, come down to poor decision making. Make a risky pass when you shouldn't have, bad decision. Go in for a tackle when the man has already beat you, bad decision. You decide to run to a different part of the field than where your positions is, then not track back and mark, bad decision.

"Beckerman's lack of speed, quickness, and technique put the center backs under constant pressure that resulted into goals. To say that Beckerman didn't make mistakes, when he was beaten often, turned the ball over often, and muscled off the ball often is delusional. "
^^^ Send a link in this thread to the highlight of a goal that he was directly responsible for in the WC.

"It's suicidal and idiotic management to say I want a def mid that cant cover much ground, defend 1v1, or play out of the back because he has discipline or just won't cover much ground lol."
^^^ Defensive mids aren't supposed to cover much ground. Thats the point. They sit in front of the back line and connect play from the back to the mids in front of them. Beckerman could AT THAT TIME cover ground and play out of the back just fine, he just wasnt fast. Sitting in the middle, you can afford that because most fast players are out wide or high up the field... beyond the area where he is to cover. The slowest players on most top professional teams typically play in the middle... specifically holding mid. So, yeah...

"And to back the proposed tactics of a manager that didn't pick a backup striker, a competent def mid, and left off our greatest play maker of all time is insanity."
^^^ Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Klinsmann was never once mentioned in my post. I'm not backing his tactics, only pointing out that Beckerman AT THAT TIME was more reliable than Williams, and fit the position that was required (since the box to box mid role was filled by Bradley) better.


I'm saying that given the opportunity Beckerman had with Williams' skill set and athleticism Belgium wouldn't have ran wild.

Errors also come from being out of position because you're too slow to cover the space between backs and midfield, errors come from not being fast enough to stop a counter without fouling, errors also come from inability to turn out of a tight space due to lack of quickness, errors also come from not being strong enough to hold off challenges etc.

After reviewing both goals Belgium scored in last WC, for some odd reason I didn't see Beckerman in the frame. Kind of odd for someone who's job is to support the center backs. Maybe he was too slow to keep up with the speed of play.

Busquets, Caseimero, Cante, Kheidra, Matic are recognized as the best def mids in the WC, none of them are considered near as slow as Beckerman.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #25
Tuesday June 12, 2018 11:14pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 546
Original post from Lilshmike

@bjelks
"And to back the proposed tactics of a manager that didn't pick a backup striker, a competent def mid, and left off our greatest play maker of all time is insanity."

Just wanted to add to this. In case anyone didn't know, Klinsmann made his squad decision based off of statistics. He is a stat freak. He took statistics on every player over every drill, scrimmage, practice session, then looked at the players who were the most successful/had the best winning percentage/were (statistically speaking for their position) the best and most consistent.

This is a fact. I know, because I know people who were part of that camp (both coaches and players) and that is what they told me. What people don't realize is that Landon Donovan finished at the absolute bottom of that list. How that happened, I don't know. But by the stats they recorded, he was the least successful person in the camp.

I don't endorse that exactly, and I thought it was ridiculous/personal vendetta why Donovan wasn't selected, but just thought I would point that out since you brought up that statement.

...Oh yeah, and he did have a backup striker. Johannsson, Wondo, Jozy, Deuce were strikers. Jozy pulled a hammy in the first game. Johannsson broke his ankle before the tournament started then flared it up in the first game. Deuce took over the sole responsibility. Wondo became the backup. He selected 4 strikers (typical for a 23 man roster). We just had bad luck with 2 getting hurt in the first match. Do your homework.


Johansson was injured coming into tournament, Wondo had no business near the natl team and couldn't play as a hold up striker, and Demps was best used as a second striker. To be clear, we didn't have a another healthy option that was a capable hold up striker especially in a 1 fwd formation.
goalsense
Dave
Post #26
Wednesday June 13, 2018 3:08am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

Food for thought...what if the only way Adams gets minutes at RBL is as a Right back and someone takes a significant step forward as a midfielder such as Parks?

Where would Adams fit into the equation versus Moore and Yedlin...especially if he is getting Bundesliga minutes?


I'm of the opinion that you build your team from the defense forward. Meaning that if you have a strong defensive unit you can take more risk further up the field. I want our defenders to defend 1st, attack 2nd. Unless we're deploying in a 5-3-2/3-5-2 formation.
So IF Adams transfers to the Bundesliga & gets consistent minutes at RB he'll be in the discussion with Moore & Yedlin for the starting XI.
That being said, I'd prefer if his club situation would use him as a CDM. He's got the speed, range & physicality to be an excellent CDM and allow the more technical McKennie and/or Parks to play the Box-to-Box CM.
When it comes to tournament play it's important to have guys within the squad who utility players. Guys who can play multiple positions without a significant drop off in performance. Fabian & Cameron were both that type of player. This cycle it would be good to have a few more to help cover for Injuries & Suspensions.

cudevil
Post #27
Wednesday June 13, 2018 12:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 596
When did we establish that Yedlin is only on the field for his raw athleticism?

The idea that Moore, who wasn't making the 18 for a lower level La Liga squad, is better than a starter for a mid table Prem team defies all sorts of logic.

It should also be noted that Yedlin isn't that much older than Moore.

I find it amusing when people that treat the National team like it's FIFA ‘18 on Xbox call anyone uneducated.

hamsamwich
Post #28
Wednesday June 13, 2018 1:01pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,594
@bjelks- Cameron playing the 6 against Belgium, not Beckerman (who never did anything to have his name be dragged thru the mud while playing for USA). Also Danny Williams (a favorite of mine) was called up by Jurgen numerous times so you aren't correct there either. The hoffenheim Williams wasn't as good or clean with the ball as the older more experienced Huddersfield Williams that is playing now.

geenowalker
Post #29
Wednesday June 13, 2018 9:22pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 1
Original post from Dave

I'm of the opinion that you build your team from the defense forward. Meaning that if you have a strong defensive unit you can take more risk further up the field. I want our defenders to defend 1st, attack 2nd. Unless we're deploying in a 5-3-2/3-5-2 formation.
So IF Adams transfers to the Bundesliga & gets consistent minutes at RB he'll be in the discussion with Moore & Yedlin for the starting XI.
That being said, I'd prefer if his club situation would use him as a CDM. He's got the speed, range & physicality to be an excellent CDM and allow the more technical McKennie and/or Parks to play the Box-to-Box CM.
When it comes to tournament play it's important to have guys within the squad who utility players. Guys who can play multiple positions without a significant drop off in performance. Fabian & Cameron were both that type of player. This cycle it would be good to have a few more to help cover for Injuries & Suspensions.


Agree on Fabian/Cameron. Would like to see the US get to a level where we are not picking based on position (speed vs. tactics, vs size) but where the depth is close enough to rely on who is in form at the time.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #30
Thursday June 14, 2018 2:56am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 231
Ive called for Moore to start the last couple friendlies but it was more to evaluate where he was at. For me Robinson proved he is our starter. Moore showed he needs work. He is not better Yedlin. He is not quicker than Yedlin either--I thought he showed promise but if today we were in the WC I would clearly have Yedlin over him. I hope he gets some mins so we have depth at both LB and RB. He needs alot of work but showed he will be in play for us next cycle
Stoked
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