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hamsamwich
Post #31
Sunday April 8, 2018 1:43pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,577
@bjelks- so you still haven't named a CAM or second forward not named Pulisic. And I'm saying Dempsey gives us a better evaluation of attackers than sticking Adams/Delgado in a more forward position. If it's not in their locker to play that spot, it's not in their locker.
***As for Green- he still has time but nobody can say he has lived up to expectations since that goal vs Belgium. He was supposed to be the Pulisic first, and he has never been able to shoulder that responsibility or to show at the club level in 2 Bund that he can change games.
***Your assertion that the three guys you named couldn't see the field for Ingolstadt is just not true. And I don't think anyone here is actually saying that Trapp, Delgado or Roldan should start for the USA. The are just as fringy as Morales is, only younger.

bjelks
Post #32
Sunday April 8, 2018 3:37pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
Again, I think Green can play and should get a hard look at cam and second forward.
He has the quality.

Boyd can also play second forward.
Another note, is anyone keeping tabs on Joel Sonora? I know he's in Argentina. His first touch and 1v1 ability are class.

As for Morales, he was playing in Bundesliga at 22 lol. Trapp is 25 now. Delgado and Roldan are 25 now. My pt is they aren't getting any quicker, faster, stronger, more skilled.
America has a problem with evaluating players lower than Pullisic's level. Pullisic is rated as one of the top 20 under 20 players in the world.

For some reason Americans think that MLS is on par with bottom tier Bundesliga and avg Bundesliga 2 teams, which is a joke.
It's even more of a joke that a player like Green, Boyd, Sonora can't get a camp invite when players like Trapp, Delgado, and Sapong are starting.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #33
Sunday April 8, 2018 4:10pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
Excuse me Delgado and Roldan are 22
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #34
Sunday April 8, 2018 10:44pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,577
I don't think anyone is advocating for them to play. But you can't argue against fringe guys in favor of another fringe guy and expect much of a difference. I like Morales enough but nobody here is putting him, Roldan or other mids above the likes of McKennie and Parks.

cudevil
Post #35
Tuesday April 10, 2018 6:16pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 587
Morales was a Bundesliga starter by default-not because some bigger club recognized talent and signed him. Leaving that aside, Morales was extremely mediocre in his appearances with the Nats. If he was a bit time talent, I'd be happy if he continued to be part of the set up even though he'll be 32 come WC '22. But he's not, so there's no real point in calling him in.

Boyd is a sometimes starter for a club that is likely to be relegated to 3.Bundesliga. It's unfortunate that he was injured at a key point in his career, when he was a major component in RB Leipzig's rise to the Bundes. He's now 27, a bit more than a year younger than Jozy, and not producing at a high level. And if you don't think that Jozy, regardless of his faults, could replicate Boyd's contribution to Darmstadt right now, I don't know what to tell you other than your position on how lower level Euro-based players are evaluated vis-a-vis MLSers has swung so far that you are now incapable of objectively reviewing domestic based players.

bjelks
Post #36
Tuesday April 10, 2018 6:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
Again the problem is @cudevil, people that think like you are failing to realize that A) a lower tier Bundesliga player or avg Bundesliga 2 player is by default playing at a higher level and competing against tougher competition day in and day out than an MLS player B) it also appears that people that think like you are incapable of understanding the gap between a Champs league caliber starter (Pullisic, Mckennie) a low level Bundesliga player (Green, Boyd, Morales) and an MLS lifer ( Roldan, Trapp, Delgado) and an MLS coaster into retirement (Jozy, Bradley, Demps) at this point.

The biggest gap between the MLS lifers and these bottom tier Bundesliga guys is they never even had the talent to be offered the opportunity to earn a spot even on a Bundesliga 2 team.

The biggest difference in the MLS coasters is that they once were rated to have the talent to make it in 1st team in Europe and gave up on themselves because they didn't believe in their ability or have the fight to earn a spot and they wanted the easy route.

Both the lifers and coasters are toxic to the program because they send a message to young players that you don't have to have the talent if you have the political connections and don't have to earn your spot if you were a former regular.

Also, I can't recall Morales natl team appearances, but I can't imagine they were more mediocre than Trapp or Roldan. However, for some reason there seems to be bias to fri ge MLS players over fringe Bundesliga 2 or lower tier Bundesliga players
goalsense
bjelks
Post #37
Tuesday April 10, 2018 6:45pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
And if we are going to talk about age, how come no one brings up Villafana and Lichaj's inclusion which are older than Morales and Boyd
goalsense
cudevil
Post #38
Tuesday April 10, 2018 8:05pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 587
Because no one freaking cares about Lichaj or Villafana since no one actually believes they have a long term future with the nats either.

bjelks
Post #39
Tuesday April 10, 2018 9:00pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
Lol if no one cares, how can you justify them being on the roster over better younger players with more upside?
Or even more talented accomplished players of the same age?

That is the hypocrisy of American Soccer.

There's no standard for rating players
goalsense
Dave
Post #40
Wednesday April 11, 2018 1:49am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 846
Original post from bjelks

And if we are going to talk about age, how come no one brings up Villafana and Lichaj's inclusion which are older than Morales and Boyd


There are plenty of people (fans) who've voiced issues/concerns regarding the inclusion of Villafana & Lichaj in the recent camps. Most of us were frustrated by the fact that neither Robinson or Moore were given any minutes in the last friendly. I may have been in a minority, but I was upset that D. Acosta didn't see the field during the January Camp. Many of us don't want to see anyone from the "Lost Generation" of USMNT players (Mix, Morales, Hedges, Shea, etc....) or aging hold-overs from the failed 2018 cycle (Bradley, Jozy, Cameron, Howard, Guzan, etc...). Unfortunately we fans have little influence in roster selection, or coaching decisions.
Most of the fan base want to see what we have to build with towards the 2022 cycle. We want to see which players could be contributors, and which players are potential depth options. At least until such time as we have competitive matches again.

Roldan & Delgado are likely depth options (B team). While McKennie, Park, Adams, & Scott are seen as "A" team players. But we won't know until we have a real coach, and players are given a handful of games together.

bjelks
Post #41
Wednesday April 11, 2018 4:56am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 500
The problem with labeling Morales with the lost generation scrubs is he started in the Bundesliga last yr and is in contention to start on a Bundesliga team next year.
None of Hedges, Shea, Mix have been near that level which is a joke.
So until Roldan and Delgado get to a better league, there's no logic in picking them over him
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #42
Wednesday April 11, 2018 2:45pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 558
Original post from bjelks

And if we are going to talk about age, how come no one brings up Villafana and Lichaj's inclusion which are older than Morales and Boyd

To answer your question, its because we have depth at those positions (CM for Morales, Boyd for ST), and don't have the same depth for outside backs (LB in particular).

Realistically, Fabian Johnson is our best LB option. If he hasn't lost his pace by next WC and wants to give it a go... he would be our best choice. Given tho that he has pretty much stated hes done with the Nats, we need to look elsewhere.

Our best LB at the moment is Greg Garza. He'll be 30 next WC. Don't know why he doesn't get more recognition. Granted, hes had some injury problems, but still our best when healthy IMO.

Lilshmike
Post #43
Wednesday April 11, 2018 2:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 558
@bjelks
You need to put things into context. Yes, it makes sense to push younger guys with higher upside instead of older guys who we have seen. However, that only works when we have younger guys in those roles who actually are/can be good enough to play. We shouldn't push youth for the sake of pushing youth.

Given that point, we need to figure out where we do and do not have youth depth. Currently, I see the situation as this:
  • GK, CB, CM, RB are taken care of. We're good there.
  • ST has some question marks, but we still have suitable options.
  • RW/RM needs looks. Although Pulisic can play right, he may end up/be better suited for a more central role. I don't see Arriola as a long term starter.
  • LB, LW/LM need serious evaluating.


Lilshmike
Post #44
Wednesday April 11, 2018 3:34pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 558
Original post from bjelks

Lol if no one cares, how can you justify them being on the roster over better younger players with more upside?
Or even more talented accomplished players of the same age?

That is the hypocrisy of American Soccer.

There's no standard for rating players

^^^and this... the standard of rating players...

I don't know how much MLS or foreign soccer you watch, but I feel like it can't be too much. Yes, we want our best players in Europe because thats where the best football is. But there are factors (like having a passport, being a certain age, MLS letting you leave your contract, salary, making decisions about having a family and where you want to raise your kids, etc.) that contribute to many guys staying in MLS. For some of these guys, the biggest paycheck they'll get is in MLS (Bradley, Jozy, Dempsey, Besler, I'm sure there are more).

Rating guys who play in Bundesliga 3 over MLS is actually quite absurd. Rating guys who play Bundesliga 2 over MLS, simply because they play in Bundesliga 2, is also absurd. Top to bottom, the only European leagues that are undoubtedly better than MLS are the top flights in England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands. You could make an argument for Russia, Turkey, Greece, and MAYBE Belgium. After that, MLS is just as good or better than any other league.

Given that, you need to figure out a few things for both the goals of the USMNT as well as the players themselves. For USMNT questions:
  • What roles do we need filled?
  • Do we need starters, or are we looking for depth pieces?
  • What style/system are we trying to play?
From there, we need to evaluate players to answer those questions based off the following:
  • Do they play in a league of adequate quality?
  • Do they actually play and get consistent first team minutes?
  • Are they good enough for the international level or have that potential?
  • Do they possess any qualities that other players do not?
  • Do we already have equal/better options?
Now, thats a very realistic set of goals and questions that need to be answered when evaluating players. Certainly there are exceptions, but typically if a player can answer most if not all of them, they should be considered if they fit the USMNT questions.

I'm not attempting to defend MLS or anything here, but come on now... whats your standard for evaluating players?

cudevil
Post #45
Wednesday April 11, 2018 7:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 587
Original post from bjelks

Lol if no one cares, how can you justify them being on the roster over better younger players with more upside?
Or even more talented accomplished players of the same age?

That is the hypocrisy of American Soccer.

There's no standard for rating players


I'm not justifying their inclusion in the roster. I didn't ask for them to be called in, and most people aren't pushing for their inclusion. That's just yet another one of your straw men arguments.

Your other post is equally ridiculous, because it again assumes that I am advocating for Trapp or Roldan. What I've said is that Morales doesn't deserve to be called in because he's not that good and he's not going to factor into the future set up. The fact that you don't remember Morales getting called in and not performing speaks volumes as to how credible we should treat you banging the drum for Morales.

I've also explained why the decision makers could think that Trapp, Delgado, Roldan, etc. should get looks because they are younger and, if they progress, would have a role in the next round of qualifying.

Lilshmike touches on something that I've wondered about-namely, whether you watch much European soccer generally, and the American prospects playing over there specifically. At this point, it sure seems as if you see that the guy plays in a European league and just assume he is better than his domestic counterpart. As Lilshmike also points out, there are lots and lots of reasons why someone from the MLS isn't playing in Europe, and it doesn't relate to on-field performance.

The only thing I agree with you is that European leagues are tougher from the sense that you aren't going to retain a spot in the starting 11 if you aren't performing, which I can't necessarily say for the MLS. Having to perform or lose your spot is a good thing.

I'd also be thrilled if we were had a starting 11 comprised of guys playing regularly outside the MLS. That, however, is not realistic at the moment. To say nothing of the fact that suggesting throwing out the blanket statement that the guys in the MLS aren't as good as their European counterparts has no basis in fact. We can only hope that guys go the Sargent route or that the MLS makes it easier for guys to move on.

Finally, right now, I'm happy to take a look at youngsters that haven't yet broken into the first team since we've got time, and it could actually help those players develop. But once things get real, this notion that we should throw a bunch of young, unproven, even if talented players into the qualifying mix and expect that they could perform as well as experienced, but less talented vets is all kinds of stupid. It's taking a video game approach to real life. It's saying that a baseball team should just cull the best 11 guys from their minors and immediately promote them to the major league club. It would be an unmitigated disaster.

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