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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #31
Wednesday February 14, 2018 8:53pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,418
Original post from Spank

On my end the argument is more about the lack of quality overall. I don't rate Boyd, Green or Morris. Morris doing well for the Sounders doesn't say much IMO. Wondo has torn MLS apart for however long now and he didn't contribute anything to the NT except the Belgium WC whiff.

All I'm saying is Morris needs to be abroad and kicking ass before i endorse him. I don't remember Germany winning the WC with 2. Bundesliga and MLS players.


But Morris has contributed to the USMNT. Scoring the winning goal to capture the Gold Cup. So winning an MLS and Gold Cup championship doesn't say much? Carrying an average Sounders team as a rookie in the playoffs doesn't say anything? I don't remember Ghana Winningba WC with Premier League, Bundesliga, and Serie A players. I don't remember Colombia winning a WC with European based players that list can go on and on for countries.

dfw_fan
DfW
Post #32
Wednesday February 14, 2018 9:50pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 954
Original post from 2tone

But Morris has contributed to the USMNT. Scoring the winning goal to capture the Gold Cup. So winning an MLS and Gold Cup championship doesn't say much? Carrying an average Sounders team as a rookie in the playoffs doesn't say anything? I don't remember Ghana Winningba WC with Premier League, Bundesliga, and Serie A players. I don't remember Colombia winning a WC with European based players that list can go on and on for countries.


That is so off-base... LOL
What a counterpoint eh? He was great as a Rookie for Sounders (in 2016)

How do you justify US not even qualifying for WC2018 with a group of entitled folks(Areana, Bradley, MLS members )?

What do you have to say about that?

mandela
Post #33
Wednesday February 14, 2018 9:59pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 61
i totally can see why you don't rate morris, boyd or green.

all have underwhelmed and can't see anyone making the argument any of them is clearly building block for the future....

almost all us players are maybes....and staying in MLS hasnt really been a path to USMNT success for most USMNT players.....

Dave
Post #34
Thursday February 15, 2018 4:01am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 833
Original post from 2tone

I would love to see Green become the player he was hyped to be. But he hasn't yet and he is playing for a crap team in the Bundesliga 2 and his stats with said club don't back him up to say he deserves more over Morris.


It depends on what position you're looking fill. I don't have an issue with Morris as a striker, in either a single formation or paired with target guy. It plays to his strengths (speed, physicality, & hustle). However, I'd take Green over Morris as a wide player any day of the week (more creative, passes better, more technical).

Regardless right now neither Green or Morris should be considered starters for the National Team. But IMO both could/should be part of the 23....at least until better options step up and see consistent minutes with 1st teams (Sargent, Weah, etc...).

bjelks
Post #35
Thursday February 15, 2018 5:07am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 458
The biggest problem with the US men's set up is scouting and identifying talent.
The fact that Us media and fans think a mediocre mls player should be rated higher than a mediocre Bundesliga 1 or 2 player who were developed in a world class youth system is a joke and a disgrace. It's that kind of ignorance and conceitedness that is literally why we're not going to the WC and the world doesn't respect us.

We continue to use US "system" bias and prejudice to give unmerited call ups to unworthy players and it has to stop if we are going to move forward
goalsense
dfw_fan
DfW
Post #36
Thursday February 15, 2018 7:23am

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 954
Original post from bjelks

The biggest problem with the US men's set up is scouting and identifying talent.
The fact that Us media and fans think a mediocre mls player should be rated higher than a mediocre Bundesliga 1 or 2 player who were developed in a world class youth system is a joke and a disgrace. It's that kind of ignorance and conceitedness that is literally why we're not going to the WC and the world doesn't respect us.

We continue to use US "system" bias and prejudice to give unmerited call ups to unworthy players and it has to stop if we are going to move forward


+10000

tylercocinas
Post #37
Thursday February 15, 2018 3:39pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,120
Original post from 2tone

But Morris has contributed to the USMNT. Scoring the winning goal to capture the Gold Cup. So winning an MLS and Gold Cup championship doesn't say much? Carrying an average Sounders team as a rookie in the playoffs doesn't say anything? I don't remember Ghana Winningba WC with Premier League, Bundesliga, and Serie A players. I don't remember Colombia winning a WC with European based players that list can go on and on for countries.


I'm withholding a final judgment on Morris for now. He did have a good rookie season, but he slumped hard last year. So now in his 3rd season as a professional, I think it's reasonable to believe that the player we see on the pitch will likely give us an indication of the player he's going to be. That being said the jury's still out on Green too. He's 22 years old, 8mo. younger than Morris.

As for the "Ghana winning a WC" stuff, I do remember Colombia beating our ass in the 2016 Copa America though. And guess what, they did it with European and South American based players. I remember Argentina beating our ass too in the same tournament. Belgium handed it to us in Brazil, that list can go on and on for countries.

Lilshmike
Post #38
Thursday February 15, 2018 6:12pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 536
Original post from bjelks

The biggest problem with the US men's set up is scouting and identifying talent.
The fact that Us media and fans think a mediocre mls player should be rated higher than a mediocre Bundesliga 1 or 2 player who were developed in a world class youth system is a joke and a disgrace. It's that kind of ignorance and conceitedness that is literally why we're not going to the WC and the world doesn't respect us.

We continue to use US "system" bias and prejudice to give unmerited call ups to unworthy players and it has to stop if we are going to move forward

Good point on scouting and identifying talent. We definitely have a problem with that, and there are a number of reasons why that is so (still a young soccer nation, high population with large geographic area to cover, lack of long standing professional system, lack of pro-rel, etc.).

An average MLS player should be considered on par with at least Bundesliga 2/Championship players given that those players play the same amount of minutes/have the same stats/whatever. Any league below that (every other Div 2 league and a lot of random scandanavian/other European leagues) is not on par. Players above that level (Bundesliga 1, Prem, etc.) on those teams should be considered higher than MLS guys granted they actually play. If they play for a better team and sit the bench, whether or not they are actually better, they shouldn't be an easy consideration for inclusion over an MLS guy who plays week in and week out.

US Media and fans' ignorance and conceitedness didn't cost us going to the WC. The decision to fire Klinsmann did. 2 of our 3 most difficult games (Mex Home, CR Away, Mex Away) were first in the Hex. Lets be realistic - we were going to lose to CR and we should not have expected to beat Mex since they were definitely in better form at the time. We should have taken 1 point from those games. We took 0. That 1 point difference between realistic result and actual is what got Klinsmann fired and cost us qualifying.

It wasn't US Media and fans' ignorance and conceitedness per say that ultimately got JK fired tho. I'd say its more like a severe overreaction to results caused by US soccer community hysteria, due to an unrealistic expectations of said results and our player pool at that point in time.

cudevil
Post #39
Thursday February 15, 2018 7:53pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 559
Original post from Spank

What is Morris doing that is so great? If Boyd played in MLS I'm sure he'd have a more productive season than Morris. Morris is an okay player but he's not anywhere near the hype.


Saying that you think that the entire group is mediocre is not the same as establishing a pecking order within that group. I don't have any problem with not calling any of them into a camp. But if I'm calling in one, it's probably Morris.

cudevil
Post #40
Thursday February 15, 2018 8:01pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 559
Original post from bjelks

The biggest problem with the US men's set up is scouting and identifying talent.
The fact that Us media and fans think a mediocre mls player should be rated higher than a mediocre Bundesliga 1 or 2 player who were developed in a world class youth system is a joke and a disgrace. It's that kind of ignorance and conceitedness that is literally why we're not going to the WC and the world doesn't respect us.

We continue to use US "system" bias and prejudice to give unmerited call ups to unworthy players and it has to stop if we are going to move forward


If a player is not performing in a second division or lower league, particularly on a bad team in one of those leagues, who cares "if they were developed in a world class youth system"?

I also find it interesting that you are railing against "unmerited" call ups of MLS players, but appear to be fine calling kids from youth systems that haven't gotten run with the first team. If you want to call the youth system players in because they have more talent/higher ceiling, that's fine. But don't act like that would be a "deserved" call up.

Lilshmike
Post #41
Thursday February 15, 2018 9:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 536
Original post from cudevil

If a player is not performing in a second division or lower league, particularly on a bad team in one of those leagues, who cares "if they were developed in a world class youth system"?

I also find it interesting that you are railing against "unmerited" call ups of MLS players, but appear to be fine calling kids from youth systems that haven't gotten run with the first team. If you want to call the youth system players in because they have more talent/higher ceiling, that's fine. But don't act like that would be a "deserved" call up.

To build on both of our points, its all comes down to how good the guy is and if they are playing regularly. We've seen the bias both ways. JK definitely overvalued European based players and undervalued MLS players, but Arena did the complete opposite.

If they are good enough, play against adequate competition, and get minutes on a consistent basis, they should be considered. Otherwise, they should be low priority or require high scrutiny before being called in over one of the other guys.

However, there ARE some guys who don't fit this bill but should be getting looks for one reason or another. Like JK did with Wood by throwing him a lifeline, or a guy coming back from injury, etc.

Lilshmike
Post #42
Thursday February 15, 2018 9:14pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 536
Personally, I would love to see Hyndman get called in, as well as Joe Gyau. Both need a lifeline thrown there way to get out of their crappy club situations. Gyau in particular. He still has quality, but his injury wrecked his career. He WAS Pulisic before Pulisic, just on the left side of the field. Young, lightning quick, dribbler on the wing brought up in Dortmund who just started getting into the first team when he messed up his knee.

Tip of the cap to Dortmund too, because they renewed his contract while he was injured and they didnt have to. My guess is they were cool with him and figured that if they didnt, he would have been out of contract, have to foot the medical bills himself, not have access to world class doctors and PTs, and basically his career would be done.

But after being out of football for 2 years and having not played due to injury, no real club is going to take a chance/sign a player like that. Too much risk for whats perceived as little reward. As a result, the only place where he could get a contract is 3 div in Germany, where he was been doing well. And he still has about 5 years left in him (hes 25 now).

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #43
Friday February 16, 2018 6:23pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,418
I do still think Gyau should get a look just because winger continues to be a problem for the USMNT. But that could all change. Johannsson is now playing on the wing for Bremen and Ithink Amon will be a huge contributor soon at winger. I would rather see Pulisic underneath a lone striker for the USMNT.

blaise213
Post #44
Friday February 16, 2018 6:33pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,519
Greetings from Amsterdam

-- Johannsson --
- Pulisic - Tillman -
Amon -Willams- Saief -
Robinson - Brooks - Miazga - Yedlin
-- Steffen --

Lilshmike
Post #45
Friday February 16, 2018 7:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 536
Original post from 2tone

I do still think Gyau should get a look just because winger continues to be a problem for the USMNT. But that could all change. Johannsson is now playing on the wing for Bremen and Ithink Amon will be a huge contributor soon at winger. I would rather see Pulisic underneath a lone striker for the USMNT.

Agreed. I think Pulisic's best position for us would be underneath the striker. A CAM playmaker type role where he touches the ball more than he would otherwise on the wing.

I still think Johannsson is the best striker in the pool. Has been ever since he decided to switch to the US. Has just had a hard time with injuries and instability at Bremen.

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