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Lilshmike
Post #886
Monday July 8, 2019 3:41pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,261
Original post from bjelks

Sarg, Nova or Wood would've easily put away one of the 1v1s or sitters Jozy had resulting in winning us the game.

The problem with the coaching decision is that we did not interview anyone else. If we had some higher profile public rejections, it would be a feasible excuse but that wasn't the case.

Playing Morales or DWill alongside Mckennie at dual 6 would've allowed us to win more duals and cover more ground in the midfield.

I haven't seen a public invite and rejection from Fab.

Timmy C even after an injured season is better than Ream, Lovitz and can play either midfield wing.

Our problem is that we don't demand more from USMNT management or our players, all players, not just the stars. Our management also doesn't take risks. We say things like this 19 yr old hasn't played enough Bundesliga games to compete with a 10 yr mls vet. We say things like this 29 yr old Bundesliga fringe player is too old when Bradley and Jozy are the same age in a lesser league.

At the end of the day, we need the 23 players with the most ability regardless of experience.
You should definitely quit your job and apply to work as the next manager of the USMNT.

Like, making it a point to interview people not interested in the job so we could get some high profile, public rejections in the media is a brilliant strategy. That would definitely make good, qualified coaches want to work for us.

Lilshmike
Post #887
Monday July 8, 2019 3:57pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,261
Original post from Fraser31

But that wasn't just your point. You point was suggesting that winning this tournament is somehow a given, that not winning this tournament with our current team and coach isn't surprising is somehow outrageous.
Was that in response to my comment or Ham?

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #888
Monday July 8, 2019 3:59pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,408
Hammy

bjelks
Post #889
Monday July 8, 2019 3:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,334
Original post from Lilshmike

You should definitely quit your job and apply to work as the next manager of the USMNT.

Like, making it a point to interview people not interested in the job so we could get some high profile, public rejections in the media is a brilliant strategy. That would definitely make good, qualified coaches want to work for us.


lol it at least shows the media, pool, and fan base that we have some ambition.
If it all fails, at least we can get a bad, unqualified coach like Berhalter to take the job.
Do you really think if high profile coaches reject us, we'll look any worse in the media than we already do lol?
I don't understand why this program has so scared to be transparent. That's no why to earn trust from the fan base
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #890
Monday July 8, 2019 4:00pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
I don't think it's unfair in the wake of the tournament (which we were told by the coach he wanted to win) to criticize not winning. I didn't even want Martino necessarily but it's fair to criticize a process which did not include other candidates.

Beating Mexico is the USA job. We aren't world beaters, we all know that. But beating Mexico is and has always been job #1.

There are three responsible parties:

1) the players. I admire Gyasi Zardes and his commitment level. I blame him 0% I knew he wasn't good enough. Same thing with Bradley I think as the tournament went on the players wore their pride and commitment on the shirt. I think they did their best even if Jozy and Zardes finishing was poor they weren't lazy or uncommitted. We just lacked quality in areas (the debate could go on over who was selected forever just like people do with Donovan in ‘14) but there was enough to get the job done. They were asked to do too much and questionably positioned by their coach. I mean Pulisic is just better on the wing even if he was decent centrally he was most dangerous on the wing all tournament.

2) the coach. He calls in the players, in fact he called in three previous camps in order to gear up for this tournament. With the exception of Lletget, Brooks and Adams (who he would've played in a different spot) this is the roster he wanted. He chooses the system and the tactics and everything. There's a reason he isn't behind a keyboard and is on the sidelines and that's to coach. He makes the in game decisions as well. Berhalter needs to improve across the board from getting his message across to being better with his ideas during the game.

3) the federation. They should wear most of the blame here. They can't get their act together and from the outside many of the things they do are basically mafia tactics. Who is even in charge? They wasted 18 months and never did a coaching search.

****i have things in perspective. At my job I'm held responsible for what I'm responsible for, no more, no less. I'm sure it's the same for most of us. I'm just asking for the same from the national team program, especially the higher ups. The two Berhalters are the responsible ones. So if they do well, great, they will get praise. But if they do average (this hire and this tournament) or poor (previous WC cycle), they need to be held responsible. That's not asking for them to lose their job it's expecting they do their job better.

hamsamwich
Post #891
Monday July 8, 2019 4:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
And then there are us as fans.

Myself: I have always and will always view the national team as the pinnacle of soccer players and coaches that are American. Those can change at any given time. I will never call for a player who I don't think is quality or the best of the bunch. I always want to win and do not view the national team as a development program. It's the best of wherever we are at any given point in time. I think Gregg and I do agree on that. As a fan, I always want and will expect to beat Mexico all things being equal (i.e. not at the Azteca or if there is a clear talent difference). I go to games, watch them and post on the internet to stay involved. My opinions are my own. I agree we have a long way to go and I admire the offensive style the current coach wants to implement. But it's hard for me personally to get behind the whole thing when I know many of our top players and coaches are excluded from participation. We aren't getting the USSF's best they are just collecting money.

hamsamwich
Post #892
Monday July 8, 2019 4:14pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
@fraser- no im not surprised we lost. We all have said Tim Ream is CB in the premier league and so the coach decides to play him in space over at LB with no help. Many people saw that coming. Expecting us to beat Mexico but then we don't finish well and the coach doesn't do well in game it's not a surprise we lost.

***as for Gregg he needs to turn his advantage (I'd say the first 30 minutes of every game) into something he can make work all game. And a plan B in case plan A doesn't work.

hamsamwich
Post #893
Monday July 8, 2019 4:21pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
Maybe I was the only one watching in Spanish....

But when Roldan came on, Marcelo Balboa talked for thirty seconds about how Pulisic would be going wide and how Roldan would go central and this and that. Abruptly, Balboa stopped what he was saying and confusingly in said Spanish that Roldan isn't a winger that he plays the 6/8 for Seattle, while at Dortmund before and now soon for Chelsea, Pulisic will be a winger. In a 0-0 game those were the decisions which cost the USA a chance to win, in my opinion. And the coach needs to be better or get better results doing it his way with a bunch of guys playing slightly out of position.

Lilshmike
Post #894
Monday July 8, 2019 4:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,261
@Hamsamwich

Good points, and I don't necessarily disagree with what you just laid out. The Jay and Gregg is concerning. If you look back on this site, you will see that I highlighted this a long time ago that there may be some conflicts of interest. Now thats not to say they both can't do their jobs without letting their personal ties prevent each other from doing the things that need to be done without there being some grand conspiracy, but the optics of the situation are certainly poor.

The coaching search was definitely drawn out and could have been handled better IMO. But during that time, would having a full-time manager have solved our problems? Probably not. Was it ideal? No. Yeah, it sucked, but its not like that is going to prevent us from qualifying for the next WC or make our player pool worse.

We should always want to beat Mexico. Dominating our region should always be first and foremost before looking to conquer the world. However... as much as it pains me to say, objectively speaking, Mexico is better than us right now. We lost to a better team, and although it stings because its Mexico, they're still better so that shouldn't be a point of concern for us at this time.

And as much as people complain about the player selections and whatnot... the reality is that we just aren't there yet. The vast majority of arguments are about fringe players or guys who we should be integrating into the program over the next cycle. Contrary to popular belief and definitely a hot take, but we actually have a fairly deep pool. The problem is that we have a deep pool of guys who are "good enough to play, but not good enough to be a starter (ie bench rotational players)" and not enough guys who are "top 11 starters". Our problem has always been that we had a decent starting lineup with some good players, but absolutely no bench and a worse player pool behind them. We have moved past that point to where our national team pool and bench is light years better than it was over a decade ago, but we still haven't been able to produce a higher number of big time "top 11 starters".

For example - is our starting lineup now better than it was in 2002? If everyone was healthy, in form, and available (Fabian Johnson included), that would be a tough debate. Idk if we could say we are. But if you look at the bench we have now, and the players behind them in our pool compared to where we were in 2002 its not even close. The problem lies in the "top 11 starters". We just aren't producing a high enough number of those players yet. How do we get there and how do we fix that problem? I'm not sure.

db707
Post #895
Monday July 8, 2019 4:44pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,003
Original post from hamsamwich

Maybe I was the only one watching in Spanish....

But when Roldan came on, Marcelo Balboa talked for thirty seconds about how Pulisic would be going wide and how Roldan would go central and this and that. Abruptly, Balboa stopped what he was saying and confusingly in said Spanish that Roldan isn't a winger that he plays the 6/8 for Seattle, while at Dortmund before and now soon for Chelsea, Pulisic will be a winger. In a 0-0 game those were the decisions which cost the USA a chance to win, in my opinion. And the coach needs to be better or get better results doing it his way with a bunch of guys playing slightly out of position.


I agree with what you noted earlier that the coaching is an issue, I was just noting that the talent is also an issue (we only have a couple of top level players, really). The coaching is something we can do something about, but we chose to completely bungle the hiring process. The available talent, we're getting somewhat better in that regard, but we're going to need to start giving the younger players chances as soon as they are established with their senior teams.

To address @lilshmike, for me, no it's not all doom and gloom right now, it's that we don't appear to be moving forward and the path for us to move forward with the current management is unclear. That's a concern in terms of improving for 2022 and 2026 and any meaningful matches in between.

Lilshmike
Post #896
Monday July 8, 2019 4:59pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,261
Original post from db707

I agree with what you noted earlier that the coaching is an issue, I was just noting that the talent is also an issue (we only have a couple of top level players, really). The coaching is something we can do something about, but we chose to completely bungle the hiring process. The available talent, we're getting somewhat better in that regard, but we're going to need to start giving the younger players chances as soon as they are established with their senior teams.

To address @lilshmike, for me, no it's not all doom and gloom right now, it's that we don't appear to be moving forward and the path for us to move forward with the current management is unclear. That's a concern in terms of improving for 2022 and 2026 and any meaningful matches in between.
Fair point. I agree that the path forward seems to be a bit unclear, but look back at my previous post on our player pool. I think we are moving forward by bringing up the "average" player in this country to a higher level, but we still lack a higher number of top level guys.

I think 2022 is only going to be about qualifying (which we should do) and getting out of the group stage. But after that, the outlook gets fuzzy. US Soccer isn't doing itself any favors by being quiet on the direction of the program, but to be fair to them its not their obligation to do so (meaning broadcasting their plans, brainstorming sessions, etc to the media). Their obligation is to put people in places/positions to get us to the WC and hopefully have a run at it.

hamsamwich
Post #897
Monday July 8, 2019 5:08pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
@lilshmike- glancing back to ‘02. A couple things stand out to me:

Guys like Donovan and Beasley made an impact. They are our Sargent or Richards of today, and the pool is that much better they'd struggle to get into the team nowadays with lack of professional game time.

The players in ‘02 were more team oriented because their relative talent level was similar. All scrubbing players working for a common goal. It's hard to disagree with whoever just said that Pulisic doesn't trust his teammates because he knows they will screw up his pass. I'm ‘02 they just kept the ball moving. Also the defensive system was easy to do unlike the complicated game we now are playing.

The players are much better. I'm a McBride guy for sure but he even he says Sargent is better than he ever was. And he can't make the current squad. Or bob Wood or whoever we want to name. There are now plenty of options whereas back then just a few. When OBrien got hurt we were screwed. Now it's just preference there's no Morales or Canouse or whoever. Those guys didn't exist as depth in ‘02....

I loved Tab Ramos as a youth coach to help players mature their mental and confidence game...but I think Wicky will help the players more with tactical on field solutions. I think the 2026 World Cup is our new goal and anything and everything between now and then should concentrate on that. 2022 in my opinion is too soon to be actually competitive with the world. I'm gonna sound like @blaise but I just think the Llanez and Booth and Las and Ocampi-Chavez age guys are and will be that much better when they are 18-26, not our current "veterans".

cudevil
Post #898
Monday July 8, 2019 5:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 982
I'd be much more ok with this team selection for the Gold Cup if I thought that guys like Weah, Pomykal, etc. would have been called to the senior side but for the U20 WC. But when I see the stupidity with how Sargent was treated, I have zero confidence that Berhalter/Ramos/USSF are taking any real structured approach to the younger guys and/or Berhalter doesn't want to integrate the young guys now.

db707
Post #899
Monday July 8, 2019 5:26pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,003
Original post from Lilshmike

Fair point. I agree that the path forward seems to be a bit unclear, but look back at my previous post on our player pool. I think we are moving forward by bringing up the "average" player in this country to a higher level, but we still lack a higher number of top level guys.

I think 2022 is only going to be about qualifying (which we should do) and getting out of the group stage. But after that, the outlook gets fuzzy. US Soccer isn't doing itself any favors by being quiet on the direction of the program, but to be fair to them its not their obligation to do so (meaning broadcasting their plans, brainstorming sessions, etc to the media). Their obligation is to put people in places/positions to get us to the WC and hopefully have a run at it.


I think we have been bringing up the "average" for many years, and thank God we don't have to say cap Mike Burns 75 times or Alexi Lalas 96 times anymore, because those guys sucked to be frank. But yes, we lack top guys who are above that average, with maybe a couple of exceptions.

And yes, U.S. Soccer doesn't have to broadcast how they plan to get us to a higher level as a program (where we can regularly win a full Gold Cup, advance past the Mexico Memorial Stage (round 2) of a World Cup, etc.). But they are not inspiring confidence with the complete mess of a hiring process to bring in Berhalter, and Berhalter's initial performance, which has basically been status quo.

blaise213
Post #900
Monday July 8, 2019 5:55pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,983
On point article on Berhalter

https://www.google.com/amp/s/worldsoccertalk....

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