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Lilshmike
Post #571
Friday June 21, 2019 1:21pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from Kamphgruppe

I think it has a lot to do with lack of reading comprehension. I got accused of thinking Zardes is great too. I simply said that Zardes is the stiker in our pool who scored the most goals last season and deserves a spot on the roster. It is also true, scored the most goals of any us striker and knows the system already. I don't think he is great, but it is where us soccer is right now. Our other strikers need to step up and quickly so we have better options for world cup qualifying.
This guy gets it

Lilshmike
Post #572
Friday June 21, 2019 1:23pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from bjelks

Until US Soccer creates an equal playing field for management and player selection, I will not ignore the good ole boy influence.

We have an unqualified manager with blond hair and blue eyes that was hired by his blond haired and blue eyed brother with no interview or vetting process including other candidates.

We have a captain that is being picked over players in better leagues/ teams, has led US to its biggest failure ever, and have not even considered any competition for his position.

Our system literally apologizes for players that aren't good enough to be in the pool like Trapp, like Morris, like Lovitz infinite opportunities to impress after consistently bad performances. I could go on about the minority players that play in the good old boy league (mls) that get preference over better players younger players and dual nationals.

The proof is in the pudding. If you play in their good old boy league or grew up in the good old boy system, of kiss the good old boy ass you will get unmerited privilege.
Dude, are you still talking??? Sheesh, find another hobby... its getting old.

hamsamwich
Post #573
Friday June 21, 2019 1:49pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,309
My reading comprehension is just fine. You're aren't Berhalter so you are just giving a fans opinion. Like everyone else. Coach's Greggs roster choices are just an evaluation an opinion too... And I said before you were right about who was selected. But since you never offer other options besides Jozy and Zardes what else are people supposed to take from your posts.

If you're just saying what Gregg could do and don't have an opinion of what should change then you are a status quo guy.

Tell me @lilshmike- why all the trust in the ussf and the coaches?

Lilshmike
Post #574
Friday June 21, 2019 2:30pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from hamsamwich

My reading comprehension is just fine. You're aren't Berhalter so you are just giving a fans opinion. Like everyone else. Coach's Greggs roster choices are just an evaluation an opinion too... And I said before you were right about who was selected. But since you never offer other options besides Jozy and Zardes what else are people supposed to take from your posts.

If you're just saying what Gregg could do and don't have an opinion of what should change then you are a status quo guy.

Tell me @lilshmike- why all the trust in the ussf and the coaches?
Dude... I've given plenty of opinions on forwards throughout the threads. Its not about trust per se, its about understanding the situation. And I will say again as I have said plenty of times... we just don't have the players. I wish it was different... but it is not.

We have a lot of up and coming guys with potential... but potential is different to who is actually ready to perform right now. Almost all of the kids with potential aren't ready or at the level that they need to be for the senior game yet. Once they develop, yes, bring them in. Until then, we are better served (in my opinion) having those guys compete and push out the ones in front of them, instead of just handing over the keys to a bunch of kids who aren't ready or good enough yet to even warrant selection to the 23.

For what its worth (and I have stated this plenty of times), I think our best forwards are Aron Johannsson and Bobby Wood. I think Jozy should be a bench option. However, Johannsson is always hurt and hasn't seen consistent game time in a couple of years - so in no way should he be anywhere near the national team. With respect to Wood, the dude sucked up the place for his club this year. He pretty much did the same last season as well, so he doesn't deserve to be called in because he is a forward who isn't scoring goals (the primary objective of that position).

In addition, I disagree with consistent reliance on Zardes. I've stated this, but I still understand why he gets selected. For me, I would take Dom Dwyer over Zardes. Everything Zardes can do, Dwyer can do better, and Dwyer is also left footed (which is actually a pretty big thing).

Drop it ham. Seriously. Again, you've made false claims and put words in my mouth on this topic and its becoming a broken record (just like the saga with bjelks). Like I said, it has become more about the messenger at this point than the message. Get off your high horse.

hamsamwich
Post #575
Friday June 21, 2019 3:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,309
You don't realize how you sound. You are trying to get across some confused message that makes no sense. Enjoy. Point dropped. But because we will never agree and like i said the other day, we can all disagree we don't need to have the same opinion. Surely not forced onto me by some guy who doesn't see the game the same way. And that's the beauty of all this we have different opinions. You're very right.

And since I don't trust the coaching staff nor the federation, let's just watch and clock out the big guys checks since this is all just a money grab.

Back to the game then... since the actual soccer has been heating up these boards for months. Excitement!

I've liked Nick Lima since @chrisBP said to check out his game a few years back. He has done nothing wrong so far. As he gets more tests in the future maybe he can stick.

Know Nothing
Post #576
Friday June 21, 2019 3:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,778
exhales, starts to sing Kumbaya

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #577
Friday June 21, 2019 3:51pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 344
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Union signed Wooten, I guess he is shit now that he plays in MLS.


The league is not as bad as people think nor is it as good as alot on this board think.

The issue I have with the league is depth. So you have guaranteed spots, you don't have guys pushing to get into lineups.

But I think what gets confused on these boards is the player selection from MLS. I am happy to have MLS guys on the roster but I have a problem with the guys from MLS that are selected. and Yes I want to see Wooten and he should have been at the gold cup.

Players from MLS we do not need to see anymore.
Omar, Cory Baird, Trapp, Roldon, Delgado, Lovitz, Sweat, come to mind of the top of my head,

But there are other MLS players who I wouldn't mind if they were called and would like to see. Some of the u17/20/23 mls players come to mind.
Stoked
blaise213
Post #578
Friday June 21, 2019 5:09pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,111
Original post from stoked3

The league is not as bad as people think nor is it as good as alot on this board think.

The issue I have with the league is depth. So you have guaranteed spots, you don't have guys pushing to get into lineups.

But I think what gets confused on these boards is the player selection from MLS. I am happy to have MLS guys on the roster but I have a problem with the guys from MLS that are selected. and Yes I want to see Wooten and he should have been at the gold cup.

Players from MLS we do not need to see anymore.
Omar, Cory Baird, Trapp, Roldon, Delgado, Lovitz, Sweat, come to mind of the top of my head,

But there are other MLS players who I wouldn't mind if they were called and would like to see. Some of the u17/20/23 mls players come to mind.


Pretty much nailed it. MLS defense is atrocious. That's a league wide problem.

And definitely right on the MLS guys we shouldn't be calling up to the Nats !

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #579
Friday June 21, 2019 8:01pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from stoked3

The league is not as bad as people think nor is it as good as alot on this board think.

The issue I have with the league is depth. So you have guaranteed spots, you don't have guys pushing to get into lineups.

But I think what gets confused on these boards is the player selection from MLS. I am happy to have MLS guys on the roster but I have a problem with the guys from MLS that are selected. and Yes I want to see Wooten and he should have been at the gold cup.

Players from MLS we do not need to see anymore.
Omar, Cory Baird, Trapp, Roldon, Delgado, Lovitz, Sweat, come to mind of the top of my head,

But there are other MLS players who I wouldn't mind if they were called and would like to see. Some of the u17/20/23 mls players come to mind.


I know bjelks always calls me an MLS guy but I am not really. I have always said I don't care what league they play in as long as they can ball. We should not automatically discount players because they play in MLS.

What we get a lot on these boards is "the mls guy sucks lets start this guys who plays in the third tier in Finland instead because I saw him play once and he was great." They guy they want to play has 11 sub appearances and 350min for the season. Yes the MLS guy does suck but the guy they want has never proven anything and isn't a regular starter and is not a better option. Then they start talking race and entitlement and US fans don't know shit and our coaches suck, etc etc etc when you call them on it.

db707
Post #580
Friday June 21, 2019 8:39pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from Kamphgruppe

I know bjelks always calls me an MLS guy but I am not really. I have always said I don't care what league they play in as long as they can ball. We should not automatically discount players because they play in MLS.

What we get a lot on these boards is "the mls guy sucks lets start this guys who plays in the third tier in Finland instead because I saw him play once and he was great." They guy they want to play has 11 sub appearances and 350min for the season. Yes the MLS guy does suck but the guy they want has never proven anything and isn't a regular starter and is not a better option. Then they start talking race and entitlement and US fans don't know shit and our coaches suck, etc etc etc when you call them on it.


I agree with the general point you are making. Legit cases like Morales and Alvarado shouldn't be conflated with reaches who don't even regularly start for their middling clubs (Gall, Sonora) or oft-injured players (Chandler, Danny Williams). Context is also important. EPB needs to find a new club far more than he needs to be on the bench at the Gold Cup, for example. Novakovich may need to focus on securing playing time at Reading. Not every guy on the books outside of MLS should be called up just for existing. There may be some discussion that can be had about the legit cases not getting called, but it gets lost in poorly formed arguments then further saddled with the albatross of nonsense statements about racism or generalizations about MLS.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #581
Friday June 21, 2019 9:43pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 344
Original post from Kamphgruppe

I know bjelks always calls me an MLS guy but I am not really. I have always said I don't care what league they play in as long as they can ball. We should not automatically discount players because they play in MLS.

What we get a lot on these boards is "the mls guy sucks lets start this guys who plays in the third tier in Finland instead because I saw him play once and he was great." They guy they want to play has 11 sub appearances and 350min for the season. Yes the MLS guy does suck but the guy they want has never proven anything and isn't a regular starter and is not a better option. Then they start talking race and entitlement and US fans don't know shit and our coaches suck, etc etc etc when you call them on it.


I wrote on here before I hate it when people use race, it reduces their argument, I was called a racist b.c I wrote on here I supported the wall--I have been clear from my perspective there is no racism in US soccer but there most certainly is bais towards SUM/ MLS. I think @belks@ham@blaise get under you and @lilshmike skin b.c they have valid points that are tough to swallow for the people whom believe US soccer can do no wrong.

Where I disagree with your assessment is over whom should be called in and how players are evaluated. It seems you and @Lilshmike look at being a starter as the golden ticket to the Nats and or in Zardes case goals.

1. That is where the discussion comes in re the MLS strength- foreign leagues even if you don't rate the league have deeper competition-i would argue it is harder for an American to play in a foreign 2 tier or 3 tier league than that same player playing in the US 1,2,3 tier

2. Playing time: I do not believe someone should be brought in b.c they start and another person not brought in bc they do not. Again, competition is harder overseas, even if we look at MLS the eye test should be applied not just game mins. A good example is Lewis vs Zardes Lewis didn't start last yr frankly haven't followed him this yr but not sure he is lighting up scoring wise. But yet when he is on the field briefly for the NAts energy goes up and he makes more things happen than Zardes

3. The same can be said for most goals, or assists etc: Julian Green is a good example, by all accounts, he was not a starter, didn't have tons of league goals, wasn't in 1st division. But 1st touch in world cup he scores on a volley. ZERO chance wondo even tries that. But at the time Wono started every game, leads MLS all time in scoring etc But if goals was the criteria Nova should have been called in

4. You reference injuries: I agree with you that Arjo would be our top if he was healthy-but I have never been upset when he wasn't called in bc I understand we can't count on him to be healthy for 5 mins. But what upsets fans is doesn't Jozy have injury problems, didn't Morriss just come back from a major knee surgery.

5. Williams would clearly help us more than Trapp, roldon-even if he insnt getting playing time he is better-so why leave him off.

6. Re guys who haven't proven themselves. We need to evaluate and find players who can play at this level. I have a problem with the same group of guys being called in who have clear limitations. I said in the wasted yrs. we should have continued to call in fringe players to see if they fit in but if Trapp and Zardes, etc are always given a chance why can a fringe guy not get a look. we have "proven" certain guys can not play at this level. We do not have a deep pool right now, so lets give guys whom have promise a look.

We need better scouts, we need US soccer to open its mind about who is brought in. And we need to understand you can not have a 1 size fits all approach to evaluating players.

Within MLS there are better options than who are constantly picked. Now that we wasted time finding coach Greg. Our next excuse will be we can not bring in new people b.c they won't have chemistry with the team.

So for me, its not playing time, its how good are you now, and how good will you be 1.at qualification time, 2. 2022 time and will you be better then the current player ahead of you at this time, if we think yes, they should get a look.
Stoked
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #582
Friday June 21, 2019 10:04pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from db707

I agree with the general point you are making. Legit cases like Morales and Alvarado shouldn't be conflated with reaches who don't even regularly start for their middling clubs (Gall, Sonora) or oft-injured players (Chandler, Danny Williams). Context is also important. EPB needs to find a new club far more than he needs to be on the bench at the Gold Cup, for example. Novakovich may need to focus on securing playing time at Reading. Not every guy on the books outside of MLS should be called up just for existing. There may be some discussion that can be had about the legit cases not getting called, but it gets lost in poorly formed arguments then further saddled with the albatross of nonsense statements about racism or generalizations about MLS.


Very well said. I don't think we should jump to conclusions when someone we think should be on the team isn't. Also the racism thing is just plain silly. Our teams are very diverse especially our youth teams. I think our U-20 team is at least 60% Hispanic which seems very natural as the Hispanic population soon will be the #1 in our country. I am a minority myself BTW. I really don't see the white privilege that certain people on here always whine about.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #583
Friday June 21, 2019 10:22pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from stoked3

I wrote on here before I hate it when people use race, it reduces their argument, I was called a racist b.c I wrote on here I supported the wall-I have been clear from my perspective there is no racism in US soccer but there most certainly is bais towards SUM/ MLS. I think @belks@ham@blaise get under you and @lilshmike skin b.c they have valid points that are tough to swallow for the people whom believe US soccer can do no wrong.

Where I disagree with your assessment is over whom should be called in and how players are evaluated. It seems you and @Lilshmike look at being a starter as the golden ticket to the Nats and or in Zardes case goals.

1. That is where the discussion comes in re the MLS strength- foreign leagues even if you don't rate the league have deeper competition-i would argue it is harder for an American to play in a foreign 2 tier or 3 tier league than that same player playing in the US 1,2,3 tier

2. Playing time: I do not believe someone should be brought in b.c they start and another person not brought in bc they do not. Again, competition is harder overseas, even if we look at MLS the eye test should be applied not just game mins. A good example is Lewis vs Zardes Lewis didn't start last yr frankly haven't followed him this yr but not sure he is lighting up scoring wise. But yet when he is on the field briefly for the NAts energy goes up and he makes more things happen than Zardes

3. The same can be said for most goals, or assists etc: Julian Green is a good example, by all accounts, he was not a starter, didn't have tons of league goals, wasn't in 1st division. But 1st touch in world cup he scores on a volley. ZERO chance wondo even tries that. But at the time Wono started every game, leads MLS all time in scoring etc But if goals was the criteria Nova should have been called in

4. You reference injuries: I agree with you that Arjo would be our top if he was healthy-but I have never been upset when he wasn't called in bc I understand we can't count on him to be healthy for 5 mins. But what upsets fans is doesn't Jozy have injury problems, didn't Morriss just come back from a major knee surgery.

5. Williams would clearly help us more than Trapp, roldon-even if he insnt getting playing time he is better-so why leave him off.

6. Re guys who haven't proven themselves. We need to evaluate and find players who can play at this level. I have a problem with the same group of guys being called in who have clear limitations. I said in the wasted yrs. we should have continued to call in fringe players to see if they fit in but if Trapp and Zardes, etc are always given a chance why can a fringe guy not get a look. we have "proven" certain guys can not play at this level. We do not have a deep pool right now, so lets give guys whom have promise a look.

We need better scouts, we need US soccer to open its mind about who is brought in. And we need to understand you can not have a 1 size fits all approach to evaluating players.

Within MLS there are better options than who are constantly picked. Now that we wasted time finding coach Greg. Our next excuse will be we can not bring in new people b.c they won't have chemistry with the team.

So for me, its not playing time, its how good are you now, and how good will you be 1.at qualification time, 2. 2022 time and will you be better then the current player ahead of you at this time, if we think yes, they should get a look.


You make some really good points, a well thought out post with legit concerns. I enjoyed reading it and I agree with much of what you have to say.

You are wrong about what gets under my skin however.
The thing that gets under my skin is when they don't have legit arguments. I have already agreed there is an MLS bias on the Nats right now. I am hoping that GB it just starting with what he knows and will expand the pool with future call ins.
I will give you an example of what irks me. People here post Zardes doesn't belong anywhere near the national team then freak out over every bad touch. I get that Zardes is not a great player and I sure hope he isn't a starter past the gold cup. However he does know the system and he did score the most goals of any striker in the American player pool. He deserves to be called in until we have another striker that can produce like he has proven he can. I get that MLS is not as good as the top European teams and not as good as many 2nd tier leagues like the Dutch league for instance, but it is not nearly as bad as many here make it out to be. Also I hope we learned our lesson about making young players the hope of the nation without letting them develop first. Lets ease some of these young strikers into the nats so that we have a confident, competent striker for the World Cup.

tjknowsall
Post #584
Friday June 21, 2019 10:35pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 436
yall are thinking too much. This is a building block for 2022... replace zardes with sargent, lewis with weah, roldan for adams, ream for brooks, and whoever for yedlin and you got a fine team... it was deemed weah and sargent were too young and might be in over their head, and the other players our injured... injuries are gonna happen so we need to have our depth, which is lacking gain experience... So if those switches happen and thats our team in 2022 and lets just say a goalie switches out and maybe a young guy breaks throuhg, then 16 of 23 players on this roster is going to the world cup, which is about right for a tournament 3 years out, and half the guys missing are due to injury...

hamsamwich
Post #585
Saturday June 22, 2019 2:28am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,309
Here's the thing though: I am fine with Zardes the person representing the USA, even him out there in his limited capacity he gives it his all out there and is a role model for the youth. When he played more of a peripheral role under JK and Arena I think he was better, he always tracked back to defend as well. Wondo actually has more goals in significantly less time than Zardes this season in MLS but he shouldn't be called in either. Now that Zardes is here I hope he scores and actually could see him being ok playing off Altidore because he wouldn't have to hold the ball up... But if he's put out there against say Mexico and doesn't do well what are the fans supposed to do? Well the same thing if you were at work, blame the person in charge.

To have someone tell me it's not fair to criticize the coach when he's the one making the decision is totally absurd. We all have the right to criticize the coach that's why he wears the hat and gets paid the money. The players listen to him and he makes the choices. If he is screwing up in live time we can call him on it, that IS fair.

@tjknowsall- if 16 of the WC 23 are on this team that's a problem and I do think you are correct.

I like the MLS and think it's the key to our future success: that the lower level MLS players in the future will just be that much better than they are now, that the soccer skills and competence reach the next few levels. But it's not quite there yet.

***what has the federation done to inspire confidence and trust in their decision making? Why are all the status quo guys dodging this question? I don't get it.

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