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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #541
Thursday June 20, 2019 5:03am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,539
To be honest my biggest concern is Ream not Zardes. I think Speedy wingers will target that side as the tournament progresses.

hamsamwich
Post #542
Thursday June 20, 2019 12:09pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,261
Original post from 2tone

I'm Still not evaluating Berhalter until after the Fall Nations League games. Because that is when we will see the likes of Adams, Brooks, Pomykal, Weah and possibly Sargent and Novakovich. Won't be surprised to see Sabbi as well.
Those are also must win games are you sure he will use them to integrate new players? That's not a certainty at all.

hamsamwich
Post #543
Thursday June 20, 2019 12:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,261
Original post from 2tone

To be honest my biggest concern is Ream not Zardes. I think Speedy wingers will target that side as the tournament progresses.
Berhalter made his bed with this formation time to lay in it.

db707
Post #544
Thursday June 20, 2019 12:21pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,065
Original post from hamsamwich

Those are also must win games are you sure he will use them to integrate new players? That's not a certainty at all.


They're only must win games if one accepts the idea that the Nations League matters. What is it determining? The final comes 8 months after the Gold Cup. It's a way to get teams in our region playing more regularly, which for us isn't an issue. Other than that it's kind of useless.

Lilshmike
Post #545
Thursday June 20, 2019 1:35pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,403
Original post from 2tone

Weah was never going to play in the Gold Cup. We have nevercseen Wooten play with the USMNT, and I get leaving Sargent off. He is young and didn't look good for Werder in the second half of the season and quite frankly didn't look good against Jamaica. He needs to put his head down and work hard at Bremen.

I don't think Berhalter sees Zardes as more talented then those players, but he knows Zardes weaknesses and he know Zardes strengths. I think a Berhalter sees Pulisic, Boyd, and eventually a healthy Altidore as his goal scorers. He knows Zardes will give everything, and to be honest I like those players.
Quit making so much sense, you're going to irritate people with all of that rationale...

Lilshmike
Post #546
Thursday June 20, 2019 2:34pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,403
Original post from hamsamwich

@lilshmike- You're right I won't let it go when you argued for Zardes now you want to say that Zardes is garbage. We all said that before. Now you're acting like you know what you're talking about. Zardes has always been a subpar option, just because you see it last isn't everyone else problem.

Novakovich should not be called ahead of Sargent nor should Wooten because they aren't as good. I guess you go by a different measure of a player than what you see but again don't blame others for using their eyes and logic to form opinions. You may not agree with the logic but it is logic: that these half talented MLS scrubs you think are better aren't because they aren't in a top league. To rephrase, if those players are so good why don't better teams want them. Bob Wood is a favorite of mine and so is the Midwest Novakovich (the only player there is an argument for besides Sargent). But Wood has bad knees and hasn't played or anything in forever and Novakovich isn't as good.

If it isn't a development tournament then why is Mihailovic (I must be his only fan at this point) there instead of a Sacha Klestjan or any more experienced option, like you say?

You've never answered the hypothetical of what would these marginal MLS guys do if in, say, Germany?? Would they have enough potential to ride the bench of a bundesliga club at a young age (Haji Wright, Sargent, Soto), would they score like Wooten at a lower level? Hard to say because they aren't rated as players and Germany doesn't have a weird visa thing like the UK does so it seems like most of the rest of the world calls it for what it is, whereas somehow people in America romanticize these players.

Many people spend many hours watching games, highlights, coaching kids, playing adult Rec, icing knees, going to the games, buying kits etc. we are soccer in America just like the national team which represents us on the field. Nobody is rooting for anything but the best for USA amongst the fans, of course myself included. We want to see passion and effort, let alone skill. But to just say that all these guys are the correct guys because the coach said so is kind of naive.

Just because you haven't heard of a guy doesn't mean he is or isn't good. But they could be. And people you may not like can also be right. Just like @bjelks has been calling for Boyd for what seems forever and you can't stand he may be right. I rarely agree with the guy but when he's right he's right. Boyd is a good player and is being scouted by good teams.

But why can't we have a difference of opinion among all us fans? I hope they do what I want on the field but I still support the shirt which represents all of us. However that doesn't mean blindly supporting the ussf... I'll answer my question from before I asked you: You've got the wool over your eyes (you believe the stuff don garner I mean jay Berhalter I mean Carlos cordeiro I mean Gregg Berhalter, the insiders tell you, whatever it is). Many other people don't like what has gone on the past few years and on into the Berhalter hiring. Instead of change we got an "It's all good" from Sunil or his way out as he passed the torch to Cordeiro. And as time was wasted, the pressure increased to get it right. The reason @2tone why some of us aren't giving Berhalter all this time through the World Cup process is because he and the ussf wasted 18 months of time we could've used to prepare. So here we are, and there should be no excuses. Win. Beat Mexico. Show that Bradley, Omar and Jozy were the right calls and that we should trust in the system and future. Until the prove their worth none of these have earned any trust.
First of all, I have to say this... most of what you said is just flat out nonsense. But I will address some of the claims you've made.

1) I challenge you to go back and find where I have said that I like Zardes and think he is a good option. Seriously, do it or shut up. I've been extremely consistent on my feelings of Zardes and have always said that he is poor. The only positive things that I have said about the guy are that he has warranted inclusion due to his goal scoring form in MLS. I don't like him, I have noted that multiple times, and have also multiple times said that if I was manager I would not pick him, but if you are going to select players who are in form and scoring goals... he can't be ignored. That's not me arguing for him, thats me stating that whether we like it or not, he has pushed himself into a position where he (at best, and depending on the circumstances) should be called into the 23-man roster. Additionally, from the perspective of Berhalter, I have said that Zardes knows his system and was his main man at club level, so that should be taken into consideration somewhat as well, and for that reason it is understandable as to why he would get called in. Now... if I have stated anything different on the topic, please, go ahead and find it and post it here. Otherwise, shut up.

2) Novakovich or Wood or Wooten should not be called in ahead of Sargent because Sargent is better? Based off of what, your own subjective opinion? I'm sorry, but your opinion doesn't mean anything. However, what does mean something are goals, professional minutes, and experience playing top flight football - something all of those guys have more of than Sargent. So, from a non-biased, objective point of view... yeah, those guys should be called in ahead of Sargent.

3) If it is not a developmental tournament, then why isn't Kljestan in there? Well, for starters, Kljestan (although I like him) is 33 and probably won't be around next WC. People hate on Jozy and Bradley, but they will still likely be playing next WC... which means that they COULD still be options for us. And considering they are 2 of the most experienced players we have, we cannot ignore that and completely toss them to the side. Ream and Bradley are the oldest guys in the current squad, so everyone selected has the potential to feature in 2022. Is that not looking towards the future? There is a difference between looking towards the future and shoehorning in a bunch of unproven, untested kids for the sake of "experience" because random US Soccer fans think that they have potential. Freddy Adu had potential. Zalalem. Hurzeler. Potential means nothing unless it translates to the senior game for both club and country. And a lot of kids that people want (Sargent, Soto, whoever) just aren't there yet whether you (or anyone else for that matter) like it or not. With respect to Mihailovic... I'm fine with that selection. I would have rather seen Nagbe called in instead of Roldan. Thats just my personal opinion.

4) Your hypothetical about random MLS guys playing in Germany. Well, we've seen players go both ways between MLS and Bundesliga 2. I feel comfortable stating that the level of play is extremely comparable, and that if a guy is scoring in Bundesliga 2, he would translate to MLS and vise versa. Now, there are absolutely some players in MLS right now who could make the bench at Bundesliga teams. I'm not talking Bayern Munich (although we are currently seeing that with Alphonso Davies), rather mid to lower level teams. Here is the thing... is it worth trying to pluck young talent from a foreign country, or develop your own? If they are roughly the same skill level... why worry about bringing in foreign players at a higher expense than developing your own in house? That just doesn't make sense now does it? A lot of people think its a cut and dry situation where "If he is good enough he will go there" or "why doesn't he just go to Europe", but the reality is much more complex. This is all a hypothetical though, and for what its worth, thats my thought on the topic.

5) No... I'm not saying that all these guys selected are the correct guys because the coach says so. There are some head scratching inclusions, as well as omissions, but all in all with the players available, there really aren't many names that were excluded that did not make sense. One could make a case for almost every one of the guys in the roster. Its not blind faith... candidly, its people thinking that they know better than the coach (a guy who undoubtedly knows more about any of this than any of us because he sees all of the practices, watches game film, interacts with these guys on a regular basis, etc.) because the coach didn't call in some dude who they wanted who, quite frankly in most circumstances, doesn't deserve to be called in or isn't ready (*cough* Sargent *cough*).

Too many people look at this stuff from the perspective of a fan and what they want to see, NOT from the perspective of a player and coach. Fans react emotionally to situations when they don't get what they want. Fans are typically inconsistent, subjective, and have no view as to whats happening day in day out in training... so sure, its super easy for a fan to complain about something when, candidly, they don't know what they are talking about.

You can rag on me all you want, but one thing that I have undoubtedly been is consistent. Its important to step back, try to understand the situation, analyze the options and other factors at play, and develop a set of standards that make rational and logical sense as to why a decision or player selection was/was not or should/should not have been made. Too many people get wrapped up in favorites and emotion, and make illogical, irrational, inconsistent claims in sensationalist manner when things don't go the way that THEY want as a fan.

Cognitive dissonance... look it up. People have tightly held beliefs/views and they want to be right. If those beliefs run contradictory to a set of outcomes, they will find a reason as to why they are inconsistent instead of accepting/realizing that maybe what they were believing/wanting/saying wasn't what they thought. Example: I like player X and Y. However, the coach did not call in player X and Y for the game. We lost the game. If only the coach would have called in X and Y we wouldn't have done so poorly... - this is cognitive dissonance as it makes sense of the loss by the players not getting selected, neglecting the fact that its entirely possible that the players left out weren't better than the ones who were selected. This is what many fans do. This is stupid.

My apologies on the ridiculously long post, but it come on Ham... this has become more about the messenger than the message at this point. Now I will end this post by saying again... find my Zardes comments. If it is different than what I posted in my response 1, find it and post it. Otherwise, drop it.

bjelks
Post #547
Thursday June 20, 2019 5:14pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,616
Original post from Kamphgruppe

It's just so hard to fathom why the US soccer federation didn't pick you for the head coach. I can't believe GB got it over you. You can look at players and know everything just like you do on these boards.

Dude, your so awsum

I am so lucky I get to read your insightful postings every day


Because I'm not white and my brother isn't a part of the hiring process.
Oh and because I don't prioritize MLS over quality.
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #548
Thursday June 20, 2019 7:03pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,261
My last take on Sargent and take it for what you want: coach Gregg himself said cuttingSargent was his most difficult decision and only occurred because Lletget got hurt. So that's the coach's opinion and the one that matters, not mine or yours. And a difference of opinion doesn't mean what somebody else is saying, just that you disagree or don't understand. I get it, you and the old boys club are super happy with everything and don't want to hear any dissent in the ranks. Well it's time for the players and coach to put up, then I'll shut up.

Also Pulisic is playing the #10 in the words of Berhalter to "develop that part of his game". We are seeing this differently and that's fine.

But I want a win in the final not just some magic appearance. We are in the "easy" bracket. Everyone else has sent their B team but us, who aside from Tyler Adams have the best players here from the USA according to the coach. So win. One lousy win against Guyana proves nothing.

Lilshmike
Post #549
Thursday June 20, 2019 7:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,403
Original post from hamsamwich

My last take on Sargent and take it for what you want: coach Gregg himself said cuttingSargent was his most difficult decision and only occurred because Lletget got hurt. So that's the coach's opinion and the one that matters, not mine or yours. And a difference of opinion doesn't mean what somebody else is saying, just that you disagree or don't understand. I get it, you and the old boys club are super happy with everything and don't want to hear any dissent in the ranks. Well it's time for the players and coach to put up, then I'll shut up.

Also Pulisic is playing the #10 in the words of Berhalter to "develop that part of his game". We are seeing this differently and that's fine.

But I want a win in the final not just some magic appearance. We are in the "easy" bracket. Everyone else has sent their B team but us, who aside from Tyler Adams have the best players here from the USA according to the coach. So win. One lousy win against Guyana proves nothing.
Old boys club? Seriously, what are you talking about? You're starting to rise to the level of bjelks ridiculousness. You're better than that.

Also, were you able to produce the posts on Zardes? Until you either produce or admit that you made a false claim about things that I have said, I'll continue asking...

boirte
Post #550
Thursday June 20, 2019 7:57pm

Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts: 4
Player evaluation and selection is always subjective and a matter of opinion (for example, see the NBA draft this evening). Sometimes there is a consensus of opinion (Messi is really good), sometimes not (is Sargent good enough to be on this Gold Cup roster).

There is no one way to form an opinion about who is a better player at any one given moment. Some rely on they see from a player in a game, or training, reports from certain trusted sources, coaches, scouts, etc., some rely on metrics, games played, goals, passing rate, tackle rate. Some rely on a combination of all - which is probably best given the problems/variables/biases with any given method on its own.

However, I reject the idea that someone who is not getting a lot of first team minutes is automatically disqualified. The coach is looking for a player to do a job for a game or a tournament. We would all love to have the selection problems for the U.S. of Argentina's front line or France's midfield. A bunch of quality players playing and producing in the top leagues. We're not at the level. John O'Brien was not getting a lot of run toward the back half of his career because of injuries, but if he had a pulse and could run around for 60-90 min a large, large majority of USMNT fans (rightly) wanted him on the field.

We can and will disagree and debate until we're blue in the face about player selection, but I think the "why?" is more interesting than any dogmatic approach or righteous adherence to only one view for a large number of the questions.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #551
Thursday June 20, 2019 8:29pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 958
Original post from bjelks

Because I'm not white and my brother isn't a part of the hiring process.
Oh and because I don't prioritize MLS over quality.


You always pull the race card, think of something new please

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #552
Thursday June 20, 2019 8:52pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,258
Original post from boirte

Player evaluation and selection is always subjective and a matter of opinion (for example, see the NBA draft this evening). Sometimes there is a consensus of opinion (Messi is really good), sometimes not (is Sargent good enough to be on this Gold Cup roster).

There is no one way to form an opinion about who is a better player at any one given moment. Some rely on they see from a player in a game, or training, reports from certain trusted sources, coaches, scouts, etc., some rely on metrics, games played, goals, passing rate, tackle rate. Some rely on a combination of all - which is probably best given the problems/variables/biases with any given method on its own.

However, I reject the idea that someone who is not getting a lot of first team minutes is automatically disqualified. The coach is looking for a player to do a job for a game or a tournament. We would all love to have the selection problems for the U.S. of Argentina's front line or France's midfield. A bunch of quality players playing and producing in the top leagues. We're not at the level. John O'Brien was not getting a lot of run toward the back half of his career because of injuries, but if he had a pulse and could run around for 60-90 min a large, large majority of USMNT fans (rightly) wanted him on the field.

We can and will disagree and debate until we're blue in the face about player selection, but I think the "why?" is more interesting than any dogmatic approach or righteous adherence to only one view for a large number of the questions.


This is my biggest thing. We argue about player selections so much when in reality it'd get really dark and depressing looking at a C or D squad. We aren't deep at all. We rely on either really young players or really old guys. The U20s play better ball but they aren't ready yet. Our pool is WEAK right now. I think it'll be very different by 2022 god willing if we qualify but it's dire.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #553
Thursday June 20, 2019 9:03pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,539
Original post from hamsamwich

Those are also must win games are you sure he will use them to integrate new players? That's not a certainty at all.


Why are they must win? To be honest those games have zero effect on WC qualifying. Yes you use those games to integrate new players. They are literally glorified friendlies.

hamsamwich
Post #554
Thursday June 20, 2019 9:28pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,261
I'm at work. I don't need to though because advocating for a player to be on the national team means you rate them. We both have said Jozy is our starting striker so I'd agree with you there.

@2tone- that's assuming we do well at this Gold Cup. If so, they lose some importance. But personally I think the nations league is going up and the gold cup down in relevance as we move forward. All these "competitive games" are must win at this point. Nobody goes nobody cares and only the soccer diehards (and only some of us) will understand bagging more games to be good in the "future".

Lilshmike
Post #555
Thursday June 20, 2019 9:40pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,403
Original post from hamsamwich

I'm at work. I don't need to though because advocating for a player to be on the national team means you rate them. We both have said Jozy is our starting striker so I'd agree with you there.

@2tone- that's assuming we do well at this Gold Cup. If so, they lose some importance. But personally I think the nations league is going up and the gold cup down in relevance as we move forward. All these "competitive games" are must win at this point. Nobody goes nobody cares and only the soccer diehards (and only some of us) will understand bagging more games to be good in the "future".
Ok, so you're totally dismissing the fact that you put words in my mouth and made a false claim about something I said. Got it.

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