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Lilshmike
Post #391
Thursday June 13, 2019 4:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,224
Original post from Pstkeeper

Horvath picked up a finger injury in Brugge's last game and my guess is the club was not real excited about him coming in anyways. It's best for him to be 100% ready for the start of their season and be there for all of their pre season. Brugge has a new coach and staff coming in and missing a bunch of Brugge's pre season to sit behind Steffen, since he is going to get all these games, does not make much sense for Horvath right now.
Fair, didn't know that. Then Guzan should have been in.

cudevil
Post #392
Thursday June 13, 2019 5:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 961
From October 2017, re: Johnson:

"I still really enjoy playing for my country, but there is an agreement with head coach Bruce Arena that I will only play in the more important matches," Johnson told Bild.

Does that foreclose his participation with the Nats? No. But I guarantee that Johnson doesn't view the Gold Cup as an "important" set of games.

Lilshmike
Post #393
Thursday June 13, 2019 5:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,224
Original post from cudevil

From October 2017, re: Johnson:

"I still really enjoy playing for my country, but there is an agreement with head coach Bruce Arena that I will only play in the more important matches," Johnson told Bild.

Does that foreclose his participation with the Nats? No. But I guarantee that Johnson doesn't view the Gold Cup as an "important" set of games.
That was before the last World Cup in 2017. He also stated that he viewed the 2018 World Cup as the end of his international career.

Unless he is still around playing at a high enough level and is better than the other options we have come 2022, hes most likely done.

boirte
Post #394
Thursday June 13, 2019 6:07pm

Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts: 4
Framing it a little differently: why is GB so intent on treating the Gold Cup like the World Cup? Based on his comments about leaving out Sargent; he picked what he believes is the best squad as of right now (putting aside whether one agrees with his analysis). Based on the region, etc. the Gold Cup is what the U.S. has, but there is little to be gained. Making the final is expected, winning it is nice (and an attractive brand of soccer is a hope)...at best, he has done what he is supposed to do. At worst, it continues a cycle of disappointment and frustration. Why not have a more development based squad? Give up and coming players on the fringes a time to grow and get experience in competitive matches. Maybe even give those who are in a tough club situation a platform to show out and find a better situation.

Given GB's apparent job security, the recent form of the team (friendlies or not), and the feeling around the team, I find it such a curious approach for GB.

P.S. Even approaching recent games as experimental friendlies, with less than a full squad, both the results and the game play does not instill a lot of confidence (at a minimum) in the depth of the current squad, given the opponents and the large number of those same players on the Gold Cup roster (even if they are squad players or reserves).

Lilshmike
Post #395
Thursday June 13, 2019 6:08pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,224
Original post from db707

lilshmike, Horvath is hurt, finger injury.

As previously noted my objection to the Jamaica game is, if they wanted to use it to figure out who should be in the 11 from the 23, absolutely fine, that is the purpose of a pre-tournament friendly. At this stage though, using that game in front of a paying crowd to whittle down the 40 to 23 was bad. If Berhalter can't figure out a 23 from the previous friendlies, from scouting, reviewing tape and from who performs well in practice and scrimmages (the Annapolis camp), that doesn't speak well to his talent evaluation/decision-making abilities. That is a legitimate cause for concern to me, as it speaks to Berhalter's lack of experience/meaningful qualifications for the job. The results are whatever, but they speak to deeper problems with the leadership of the team.
Fair point. I totally get that about the Jamaica game, and its understandable. But its a money making opportunity for both federations, and playing in front of a crowd is a lot different to playing behind closed doors.

I can speak from experience on this one. I've played in front of over 50,000 people before. I've played in front of 50 people before. Its different. As a fan, sure, you might find it to be a middle finger, but from the perspective of a coach... you need to see how those guys will react to pressure/jeers/cheers/atmosphere from the crowd. This is not a cut an dry situation.

Lilshmike
Post #396
Thursday June 13, 2019 6:22pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,224
Original post from boirte

Framing it a little differently: why is GB so intent on treating the Gold Cup like the World Cup? Based on his comments about leaving out Sargent; he picked what he believes is the best squad as of right now (putting aside whether one agrees with his analysis). Based on the region, etc. the Gold Cup is what the U.S. has, but there is little to be gained. Making the final is expected, winning it is nice (and an attractive brand of soccer is a hope)...at best, he has done what he is supposed to do. At worst, it continues a cycle of disappointment and frustration. Why not have a more development based squad? Give up and coming players on the fringes a time to grow and get experience in competitive matches. Maybe even give those who are in a tough club situation a platform to show out and find a better situation.

Given GB's apparent job security, the recent form of the team (friendlies or not), and the feeling around the team, I find it such a curious approach for GB.

P.S. Even approaching recent games as experimental friendlies, with less than a full squad, both the results and the game play does not instill a lot of confidence (at a minimum) in the depth of the current squad, given the opponents and the large number of those same players on the Gold Cup roster (even if they are squad players or reserves).
If Greg treats it as an experimental developmental squad to get random guys experience and whatnot, then we very likely wouldn't perform. If that happens... then its a disaster in the eyes of supporters, the media, etc.

When we play in a competition, we should aim to win. That means playing the best players at the time of the competition. Sure, there may be a few random spots here and there where we can make exceptions, but thats not the point. The point is to win - not goof off.

If we want our team to be better, we need to make players earn their spot. They need to prove they are better than the others around them and get selected. This isnt some situation where everyone gets a participation trophy. We wouldn't do that in the World Cup, so we shouldn't do that in the Gold Cup.

navi8132
New York
Post #397
Thursday June 13, 2019 6:23pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,107
On twitter, Scuffed just tweeted: Duane Holmes sitting for the last few with his thigh wrapped.

db707
Post #398
Thursday June 13, 2019 7:02pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 992
Original post from Lilshmike

Fair point. I totally get that about the Jamaica game, and its understandable. But its a money making opportunity for both federations, and playing in front of a crowd is a lot different to playing behind closed doors.

I can speak from experience on this one. I've played in front of over 50,000 people before. I've played in front of 50 people before. Its different. As a fan, sure, you might find it to be a middle finger, but from the perspective of a coach... you need to see how those guys will react to pressure/jeers/cheers/atmosphere from the crowd. This is not a cut an dry situation.


I get that, but my point is there were opportunities before the Jamaica game (including club games played in front of the same number of people or more, as well as international friendlies) to evaluate players and get a 23 together that could develop some team cohesion.

It's not entirely Berhalter's fault of course, this goes back to the farcical hiring process that wasted a year on an interim coach when it was not necessary. But he took the job, he needs to be more decisive. The only "new" players he looked at in the Jamaica game were Yueill (who's not even in the Gold Cup 40), Holmes (who he could have looked at in March) and I suppose Gyau (recalled after a long absence). Everyone else had been capped recently.

bjelks
Post #399
Thursday June 13, 2019 7:05pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,291
The problem with the friendly losses is that those weren't experimental players.

Those guys were majority regulars that we've been seeing the past 2 yrs and have failed to impress.

If the approach to GC is to play our best players and win, it still appears that outside of the top 7: Pulisic, Adams, Mckennie, Holmes, Boyd, Miazga, Steffen that these aren't our best players.

So it also looks like Greg either hasn't tried to evaluate players or is really bad at it.

It's also hypocritical to say Greg wants guys to earn their spot when it's obvious he favors guys that he's coached before or were previous call ups that failed to impress.

For all these reasons, USSF and Greg look like an incompetent/ dysfunctional joke.
goalsense
boirte
Post #400
Thursday June 13, 2019 7:40pm

Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts: 4
Original post from Lilshmike

If Greg treats it as an experimental developmental squad to get random guys experience and whatnot, then we very likely wouldn't perform. If that happens... then its a disaster in the eyes of supporters, the media, etc.

When we play in a competition, we should aim to win. That means playing the best players at the time of the competition. Sure, there may be a few random spots here and there where we can make exceptions, but thats not the point. The point is to win - not goof off.

If we want our team to be better, we need to make players earn their spot. They need to prove they are better than the others around them and get selected. This isnt some situation where everyone gets a participation trophy. We wouldn't do that in the World Cup, so we shouldn't do that in the Gold Cup.


I don't disagree with most of your premise(s). GB appears to want to be evaluated on the Gold Cup, which I believe is what you advocated for in an earlier post. That's not unreasonable. I still think there is ample room for concern coming into the tournament, but the proof is in the pudding.

I also agree that failing to perform in the Gold Cup would be viewed as a disaster. I think it is a bigger disaster with your first squad, but maybe that is just me. And maybe that simply provides an excuse if you do not meet the standard.

I suppose I am more World Cup focused (including qualifying). I 100% agree. You play, your aim should be to win, but more than one thing can be true. I think there has to be a focus on the bigger picture. Not at the expense of winning, but in addition to. Not "random" guys, but players who have an immediate future in the program being given an opportunity to grow in the program. The international game is so odd in that lack of opportunity to train together and play together in big matches...which is why I find the notion of "earning a spot" so ambiguous and the subject of so much debate on these boards. I.e. comparing players across leagues, current form to potential to club minutes, current value and age to use later in a cycle, etc.

Maybe I am just romanticizing the Gold Cup that turned me into a Stu Holden fan that launched his promising, but injury shortened career...

tjknowsall
Post #401
Thursday June 13, 2019 9:36pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 436
watching old world cup highlights... id even take some ricardo clarks and mariuce edus right now. we don't need superstars. But jesus christ I always thought growing up playing that around 2019-2020 the usa would be peaking for soccer. Watching those old highlights we had hope... We don't have hope rn. If Roldan and Trapp are supposed to lead us to a qualifying for a world cup, then id rather have a Bradley captained team coached by Alexi Lalalas only trying to get set pieces. I'm half tempted to bet on Guyana. bet Trapp will get burnt by the speed of these Guyana players... but itll be okay cuz he'll be our captain.

Lets hope Bradley and Altidore can prove they are still international quality and lead us with mckennie and pulisic cuz unless all four of those players play to their best we are screwed..

skangles
DC
Post #402
Friday June 14, 2019 3:28am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,438
Original post from tjknowsall

watching old world cup highlights... id even take some ricardo clarks and mariuce edus right now. we don't need superstars. But jesus christ I always thought growing up playing that around 2019-2020 the usa would be peaking for soccer. Watching those old highlights we had hope... We don't have hope rn. If Roldan and Trapp are supposed to lead us to a qualifying for a world cup, then id rather have a Bradley captained team coached by Alexi Lalalas only trying to get set pieces. I'm half tempted to bet on Guyana. bet Trapp will get burnt by the speed of these Guyana players... but itll be okay cuz he'll be our captain.

Lets hope Bradley and Altidore can prove they are still international quality and lead us with mckennie and pulisic cuz unless all four of those players play to their best we are screwed..


Funny you say that because I just found myself genuinely reminiscing about the empty bucket formation.

hamsamwich
Post #403
Friday June 14, 2019 12:53pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,176
The suits and higher ups got really butt hurt when Juergen said we needed to change things to be successful. The USSF's reaction has been to revert to the old boy stuff. Dinosaur Bruce and Insider Gregg, yay!!!!! Doesn't everyone feel great the East Coast good old boys chased out Juergen so we could rewind in time?? Who needs to interview Tata Martino he doesn't even speak English!

tjknowsall
Post #404
Friday June 14, 2019 5:19pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 436
I miss Ricardo Clark! I miss bedoya! Even making fun of wondo making the team because atleast their was a team to make

Lilshmike
Post #405
Friday June 14, 2019 5:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,224
Original post from db707

I get that, but my point is there were opportunities before the Jamaica game (including club games played in front of the same number of people or more, as well as international friendlies) to evaluate players and get a 23 together that could develop some team cohesion.

It's not entirely Berhalter's fault of course, this goes back to the farcical hiring process that wasted a year on an interim coach when it was not necessary. But he took the job, he needs to be more decisive. The only "new" players he looked at in the Jamaica game were Yueill (who's not even in the Gold Cup 40), Holmes (who he could have looked at in March) and I suppose Gyau (recalled after a long absence). Everyone else had been capped recently.
That's a fair point.

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