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kernn63
Post #136
Monday October 30, 2017 9:17pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 256
>Honestly, I was watching the repeats of the 2014 world cup. We went toe to toe with Germany and Belgium. Belgium being a paper heavyweight (like on paper).

I'll have to watch again. It did not feel like that for me at the time.

dolcem
Post #137
Monday October 30, 2017 10:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,755
Original post from Know Nothing

Yeah, winning the U-20 and U-17 WC's, the U-19 Euros, and beaten finalists in U-21 this year sort of puts how their academy setup is starting to reap dividends.

I think it also pokes holes in the argument that young players should not sign with English clubs. They may never play at the highest level in England, but they will get good training.


And then they'll go out from loan to loan at clubs without a vested interest in their development until they are sold off. Why not play in leagues that have elite academy systems but actually have to develop players because they don't have ridiculous TV deals (Spain, Germany, France, Holland, Portugal, etc.)?

I remember how big of a deal people made about the Mexicans and all of their youth success. About how their academy system is getting so good and that pretty soon they'll be a world power. Well, their senior team has its moments, but it's not any better than it ever is, and Liga MX, despite its quality foreign imports, is still a cut below the declining Argentine and Brazilian leagues.

Youth tournaments are meaningless. Let's wait until the English senior team is able to look like an actual power again before we heap on the praise for their academies.
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Know Nothing
Post #138
Monday October 30, 2017 11:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
Original post from dolcem

And then they'll go out from loan to loan at clubs without a vested interest in their development until they are sold off. Why not play in leagues that have elite academy systems but actually have to develop players because they don't have ridiculous TV deals (Spain, Germany, France, Holland, Portugal, etc.)?

I remember how big of a deal people made about the Mexicans and all of their youth success. About how their academy system is getting so good and that pretty soon they'll be a world power. Well, their senior team has its moments, but it's not any better than it ever is, and Liga MX, despite its quality foreign imports, is still a cut below the declining Argentine and Brazilian leagues.

Youth tournaments are meaningless. Let's wait until the English senior team is able to look like an actual power again before we heap on the praise for their academies.


Yes, but by going out on loan it is a new education in and of itself...learn, improve or be cast aside. That teaches one valuable lesson...complacency is not a good thing as your spot is always in doubt.

dolcem
Post #139
Tuesday October 31, 2017 8:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,755
Original post from Know Nothing

Yes, but by going out on loan it is a new education in and of itself...learn, improve or be cast aside. That teaches one valuable lesson...complacency is not a good thing as your spot is always in doubt.


Yeah but the teams from any of those other leagues I mentioned also send their players out on loan. The difference is that they have much more of a vested interest in developing players. That's how they make money. In England, teams make their money just by playing in the Prem (TV deals), so it's all about results. Style of play and technical development suffer. This is why they have to import all of their best players from the continent. It's the laws of economics.

The only real advantage I see to playing in England is the language, and if you're a teenager or in your early 20's and you get paid six figures (or seven) to kick around a soccer ball, give me a break. You should be able to learn another language.
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Know Nothing
Post #140
Wednesday November 1, 2017 1:12am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
Original post from dolcem

Yeah but the teams from any of those other leagues I mentioned also send their players out on loan. The difference is that they have much more of a vested interest in developing players. That's how they make money. In England, teams make their money just by playing in the Prem (TV deals), so it's all about results. Style of play and technical development suffer. This is why they have to import all of their best players from the continent. It's the laws of economics.

The only real advantage I see to playing in England is the language, and if you're a teenager or in your early 20's and you get paid six figures (or seven) to kick around a soccer ball, give me a break. You should be able to learn another language.


Technical development suffers...how? Would you take Julian Green or a healthy Joe Gyau over a healthy Sebastien Lletget? It is great Mckennie is getting playing time....but is he ready? Has he truly earned it or is it to satisfy an economic model?

And I don't see less of a vested interest, just a different one. In the leagues you mention most are forced to play the kids because they have to sell their established players to stay afloat. Their vested interest is making them competent professionals. In the top tier of the England leagues, you have to be elite to crack the lineup...there is no harm trying for elite...even if you don't reach the required level you are still getting good coaching and mentoring that will serve you the same at the next club you play for.

dfw_fan
DfW
Post #141
Thursday November 2, 2017 1:48pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 927
Original post from dolcem

Yeah but the teams from any of those other leagues I mentioned also send their players out on loan. The difference is that they have much more of a vested interest in developing players. That's how they make money. In England, teams make their money just by playing in the Prem (TV deals), so it's all about results. Style of play and technical development suffer. This is why they have to import all of their best players from the continent. It's the laws of economics.

The only real advantage I see to playing in England is the language, and if you're a teenager or in your early 20's and you get paid six figures (or seven) to kick around a soccer ball, give me a break. You should be able to learn another language.


If you have an open mind, you can always learn a new language... it is not complicated IMO.

It is quite amusing for me to see that folks(not talking about you dolcem) get too caught up in a single language, English only thought process.
Growing up, I had to learn 3 languages(read write and speak), no big deal.

Know Nothing
Post #142
Thursday November 2, 2017 3:23pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
Original post from dfw_fan

If you have an open mind, you can always learn a new language... it is not complicated IMO.

It is quite amusing for me to see that folks(not talking about you dolcem) get too caught up in a single language, English only thought process.
Growing up, I had to learn 3 languages(read write and speak), no big deal.


I am sure if a club is interested in you and language is a possible issue that will accommodate you...plus I would say it is easier to find an English speaker in another country.

dolcem
Post #143
Thursday November 2, 2017 11:20pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,755
Original post from Know Nothing

Technical development suffers...how? Would you take Julian Green or a healthy Joe Gyau over a healthy Sebastien Lletget? It is great Mckennie is getting playing time....but is he ready? Has he truly earned it or is it to satisfy an economic model?


English teams play just for results, while many teams in those other leagues play for style as well. There are some exceptions in England (philosophy brought by foreign managers and foreign players), but even then, there is very little patience for youth as results are so important. In the other leagues, there is more emphasis on developing young players, because the clubs have to raise their own talent rather than buy it. I'd rather have our yanks playing for those clubs.

I really don't understand what naming one bust that played in the Bundesliga proves (I don't count Gyau because he could have been a USNT regular if it weren't for the injuries).

What is happening at Schalke is EXACTLY why we want our players to play in the leagues I listed. Did McKennie "earn it?" Not sure what you mean. Maybe there is another player who is slightly better but older, but because they want to try and develop a young American star, they're giving McKennie PT. You would rather have him play in England, where he would get benched after one bad game and then maybe never get back on track? Who cares if people on forum boards think he "earned it" or not? The important thing is that he is getting PT in an extremely competitive league that values positive play (most goals per game of the top five leagues). That's way better than sitting in the bench in England or getting loaned out every year because they keep buying players that play his position. Why wouldn't we want our young players playing at teams that have patience for them?

Original post from Know Nothing

And I don't see less of a vested interest, just a different one. In the leagues you mention most are forced to play the kids because they have to sell their established players to stay afloat. Their vested interest is making them competent professionals. In the top tier of the England leagues, you have to be elite to crack the lineup...there is no harm trying for elite...even if you don't reach the required level you are still getting good coaching and mentoring that will serve you the same at the next club you play for.


OK, no one is saying that it would be bad to go and play at a top English club if you're getting PT, but if you are a young American player, England should be about the seventh or eighth choice. It's way better to get PT at any of those other leagues I mentioned than it is to sit on the bench in England. You're more likely to develop as a player because those leagues are better at developing talent (for economic reasons and because of their style of play). If you've outgrown your league (like Altidore did in Holland), you should move to a more competitive one, but other than that, typically speaking, England isn't a good idea. Great maybe if you're a defender getting PT (like Cameron...he shouldn't have moved anywhere), but it shouldn't be recommended for anyone else. Altidore had the choice to go to St. Etienne, Olympiakos, or Hull, and he chose Hull based on Michael Bradley's advice (playing for a relegation-threatened team teaches you a lot about yourself, he said). Hull was by far the worst of the three choices. That's common sense.
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Know Nothing
Post #144
Friday November 3, 2017 1:13am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
I suppose dolcem that we see developing differently. You see it as being trained AND playing for the team that developed you whereas I see it strictly in being trained as a professional. I would say in England they do like to develop their own talent as well, but more as an asset to sell on. So they will do as much as possible to develop the asset to get the most profit from its sale if they cannot use it...just like everyone else.

Yes, England is a more sink or swim environment, but technically I don't think the training is much different. There is more of an emphasis on results, but it also teaches you have to give your best effort or you won't be selected.

I brought up McKennie because it is possible he is getting the pt because Schalke knows it can't keep Goretzka so they are seeing if they can count on McKennie or if they will have to use the money from the Goretzka sale to buy a direct replacement.

dolcem
Post #145
Monday November 6, 2017 9:53pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,755
Original post from Know Nothing

I suppose dolcem that we see developing differently. You see it as being trained AND playing for the team that developed you whereas I see it strictly in being trained as a professional. I would say in England they do like to develop their own talent as well, but more as an asset to sell on. So they will do as much as possible to develop the asset to get the most profit from its sale if they cannot use it...just like everyone else.

Yes, England is a more sink or swim environment, but technically I don't think the training is much different. There is more of an emphasis on results, but it also teaches you have to give your best effort or you won't be selected.

I brought up McKennie because it is possible he is getting the pt because Schalke knows it can't keep Goretzka so they are seeing if they can count on McKennie or if they will have to use the money from the Goretzka sale to buy a direct replacement.


Not really. They have so much money that they have no problem discarding young talent without a profit. The teams in these other countries don't live in a financial fantasyland though and so it's much more important that they develop every player they can.

The style of play is completely different in England as opposed to these other countries. It rewards creativity while English teams won't or can't take such risks (with a few exceptions...if a forward-thinking club hires a foreign coach, for example, to try and play with such a style). Why do you think the English teams have to buy all of their players from abroad?

The big about "teaching" is just completely off. The other leagues are very competitive too, but the players are encouraged to take risks and be creative. In England they have to hoof it forward and hope for the best. Look at Jozy Altidore at Hull. If you are a young striker, why on earth would you want to play for a team like that? Michael Bradley told him to go there, because he said that when you play in a relegation battle, you learn a lot about yourself. Unfortunately, you don't get to learn how to score goals because you have to play like you're Emlie Heskey. The reality is that had Altidore gone to Olympiacos, he would have gotten to practice his attacking play, rather than just try and win flick-ons, which is all he did at Hull (and later Sunderland).

Sure, competition is important. If you're playing really, really well outside of the top three or four leagues, you should probably move up to a better league. As you should if you're not in one of the leagues I mentioned but good enough to play there. But if that's not the case, you need to play in the right system for your technical development as a player. And England is just nowhere near the other leagues I mentioned in that regard. You can't seriously argue otherwise.
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Know Nothing
Post #146
Monday November 6, 2017 11:41pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
Original post from dolcem

Not really. They have so much money that they have no problem discarding young talent without a profit. The teams in these other countries don't live in a financial fantasyland though and so it's much more important that they develop every player they can.

The style of play is completely different in England as opposed to these other countries. It rewards creativity while English teams won't or can't take such risks (with a few exceptions...if a forward-thinking club hires a foreign coach, for example, to try and play with such a style). Why do you think the English teams have to buy all of their players from abroad?

The big about "teaching" is just completely off. The other leagues are very competitive too, but the players are encouraged to take risks and be creative. In England they have to hoof it forward and hope for the best. Look at Jozy Altidore at Hull. If you are a young striker, why on earth would you want to play for a team like that? Michael Bradley told him to go there, because he said that when you play in a relegation battle, you learn a lot about yourself. Unfortunately, you don't get to learn how to score goals because you have to play like you're Emlie Heskey. The reality is that had Altidore gone to Olympiacos, he would have gotten to practice his attacking play, rather than just try and win flick-ons, which is all he did at Hull (and later Sunderland).

Sure, competition is important. If you're playing really, really well outside of the top three or four leagues, you should probably move up to a better league. As you should if you're not in one of the leagues I mentioned but good enough to play there. But if that's not the case, you need to play in the right system for your technical development as a player. And England is just nowhere near the other leagues I mentioned in that regard. You can't seriously argue otherwise.


Yes but all the money that has been poured in has trickled down into the academy system as well. I would agree England was behind the continent but they are catching up or have caught up.

I suppose we like different things...you like the creative player while I prefer the effective player. I suppose nothing illustrates this better than this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojHcSD_APc

Yes, the Ajax players play with more flair and creativity...but the Chelsea team isn't bereft of it either. Chelsea won the match because Ajax didn't take their chances and Chelsea was a little better organized.

Know Nothing
Post #147
Tuesday November 7, 2017 10:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,221
Original post from dolcem

Not really. They have so much money that they have no problem discarding young talent without a profit. The teams in these other countries don't live in a financial fantasyland though and so it's much more important that they develop every player they can.

The style of play is completely different in England as opposed to these other countries. It rewards creativity while English teams won't or can't take such risks (with a few exceptions...if a forward-thinking club hires a foreign coach, for example, to try and play with such a style). Why do you think the English teams have to buy all of their players from abroad?

The big about "teaching" is just completely off. The other leagues are very competitive too, but the players are encouraged to take risks and be creative. In England they have to hoof it forward and hope for the best. Look at Jozy Altidore at Hull. If you are a young striker, why on earth would you want to play for a team like that? Michael Bradley told him to go there, because he said that when you play in a relegation battle, you learn a lot about yourself. Unfortunately, you don't get to learn how to score goals because you have to play like you're Emlie Heskey. The reality is that had Altidore gone to Olympiacos, he would have gotten to practice his attacking play, rather than just try and win flick-ons, which is all he did at Hull (and later Sunderland).

Sure, competition is important. If you're playing really, really well outside of the top three or four leagues, you should probably move up to a better league. As you should if you're not in one of the leagues I mentioned but good enough to play there. But if that's not the case, you need to play in the right system for your technical development as a player. And England is just nowhere near the other leagues I mentioned in that regard. You can't seriously argue otherwise.


And as for "Hoofing it Up" well that may happen still in the lower divisions, but I would like to think the emphasis in the academies is more technical now. I'll use the Kyle Scott youtube video to illustrate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D19WJ_YGt88

Check out his twitter posts if you want to see creativity too.

dolcem
Post #148
Sunday November 12, 2017 10:53pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,755
Results don't matter at the youth level. The only measure of success of youth academies is how good the best players they produce turn out.

Until we start seeing more English stars coming from English academies, let's wait a bit until we say that they've caught up to the academies on the continent.
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