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dolcem
Post #46
Tuesday August 8, 2017 10:56am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,742
Yeah I have to admit that I probably went too over the top in my response. I guess I owe an apology to blaise. There was no reason to stoop to the level of personal insults. I'm sorry. It's just sometimes a struggle to be from a country where people take pride in having a complete moronic douche as a president, especially when you're abroad. Everyone is laughing at us (or just really scared) and it's really embarrassing.
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db707
Post #47
Tuesday August 8, 2017 11:26am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 437
dolcem, we don't always agree, but I can back your observation as someone also living/working abroad with an entirely local (Senegalese) staff, that if Trump is mentioned here the response is always either laughter or an expression of pity.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #48
Wednesday August 9, 2017 9:38am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Whew, this escalated. And both sides of the political spectrum on here looked awful too, this is why everyone moving toward the center-left, center-right, libertarian, etc etc. (Me personally, the Libertarian side).

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #49
Wednesday August 9, 2017 10:11am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
And going forward a little bit more on this: I do think blaise is a bit extreme, but the holier-than-thou or super outrage response to him is why the Democrats have the least amount of power they've had in nearly a century and why they're probably still going to lose to Trump in 2020 and why they did in 2016 (which had a ton of Obama voters in 2008, or even both 08 and 12, go to Trump). This stuff like calling him a Klansman, come tf guys. You're watering down these terms for the actual Klansman and Nazis/Neo-Nazis (although those are now down to below 6 figures in people), handing them to people who are just sick of the moral grandstanding in our political climate right now from the left. It really turns people away (including my generation, who is actually the most conservative 18 and under gen in the US since WW2 because of it), just some advice there. Peace.

Rey Regicide
Post #50
Wednesday August 9, 2017 12:42pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,907
Was anyone alluding to remorse over losing the perception of an ethnostate?

If so, how is any reaction aside from "yo chillout bro" considered extreme?

tylercocinas
Post #51
Wednesday August 9, 2017 7:07pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,109
Original post from SamHays1999

And going forward a little bit more on this: I do think blaise is a bit extreme, but the holier-than-thou or super outrage response to him is why the Democrats have the least amount of power they've had in nearly a century and why they're probably still going to lose to Trump in 2020 and why they did in 2016 (which had a ton of Obama voters in 2008, or even both 08 and 12, go to Trump). This stuff like calling him a Klansman, come tf guys. You're watering down these terms for the actual Klansman and Nazis/Neo-Nazis (although those are now down to below 6 figures in people), handing them to people who are just sick of the moral grandstanding in our political climate right now from the left. It really turns people away (including my generation, who is actually the most conservative 18 and under gen in the US since WW2 because of it), just some advice there. Peace.


I also think that Blaise is off base in his views. So what's wrong with calling said views out? May I point out the following excerpt from a recent post:

Original post from blaise213
It's turning the culture into an apologizing for everything, diversity is strength bull shit and pretending all cultures are equal bullshit propaganda.


I don't think I need to say anything else about why holding beliefs like that is problematic.

There's nothing wrong with being conservative, or holding right-leaning opinions. Just don't allow people who have discriminatory views to hide amongst you all, and then make excuses for them. I'm not saying that this applies to you, just speaking generally.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #52
Thursday August 10, 2017 3:54am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Original post from tylercocinas

I also think that Blaise is off base in his views. So what's wrong with calling said views out? May I point out the following excerpt from a recent post:

I don't think I need to say anything else about why holding beliefs like that is problematic.

There's nothing wrong with being conservative, or holding right-leaning opinions. Just don't allow people who have discriminatory views to hide amongst you all, and then make excuses for them. I'm not saying that this applies to you, just speaking generally.


The thing that is wrong is calling him or anyone who voted Trump (which has now become a common label for Trump voters, no matter the reasoning) a Nazi or Klansman or traitor. As for his statement, I waver on that type of viewpoint. There are cultures that have oppressive beliefs in the modern world still, such as the killing of gays in Africa and the Middle East and heavy discrimination in some other countries like Russia, or a true misogynistic society and rape culture, where women are treated horrifically. These countries exist, so that is why the "Not all cultures are equal" argument actually has a little bit of substance. They're still humans and should be treated how we'd want to be treated, though.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #53
Thursday August 10, 2017 3:56am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Original post from Rey Regicide

Was anyone alluding to remorse over losing the perception of an ethnostate?

If so, how is any reaction aside from "yo chillout bro" considered extreme?


I was just stating that the kind of hysterical name calling is why we are where we are now as a nation. And the reactions to blaise certainly weren't "Chill out", it was "Your hood is showing, Klansman", and that's just not right.

tylercocinas
Post #54
Thursday August 10, 2017 2:07pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,109
Original post from SamHays1999

The thing that is wrong is calling him or anyone who voted Trump (which has now become a common label for Trump voters, no matter the reasoning) a Nazi or Klansman or traitor. As for his statement, I waver on that type of viewpoint. There are cultures that have oppressive beliefs in the modern world still, such as the killing of gays in Africa and the Middle East and heavy discrimination in some other countries like Russia, or a true misogynistic society and rape culture, where women are treated horrifically. These countries exist, so that is why the "Not all cultures are equal" argument actually has a little bit of substance. They're still humans and should be treated how we'd want to be treated, though.


First, thank you for being willing to dialogue respectfully without insults, irrespective of your position on the issues being discussed.

Second, I agree that there are human rights violations occurring globally, so it is accurate to say that not all cultures are treated equally. However, I don't think that is what Blaise was getting at, so I view your statement and his as distinct and two separate conversations. There were Trump voters who are racist, and I think we need to be able to acknowledge that fact. Not all, as I have lifelong friends who voted for him who are people who would give me the shirt off their back if I needed it, but some were. I only wish we could get to a place where we could acknowledge that fact. I also agree that the overuse of the words "racist," "klansmen," etc. has made them common insults when they should and still are, much more.

But just to provide an example, even his campaign slogan had a duality about it. Make America Great Again. It could be taken as a return to better times economically, and when safety wasn't the concern that it is today, but we can't forget that those better times weren't quite that for everyone. This is before our time, but we as a nation had to pass congressional legislation, and have Supreme Court rulings, to protect the right of minorities to vote, and to allow minorities to use the same facilities as others. My parents for example who just turned 60, went to segregated schools as children. My grandparents went to segregated schools their entire lives, and didn't have the right to go to "Whites Only" establishments. So this is very real for people who are still alive. The "War on Drugs" destroyed communities and incarcerated thousands in the 80s and created in part, the climate of fear surrounding minorities and the police. My home, the District of Columbia, was particularly impacted by this.

I know it's hard to see from other people's perspectives sometimes, and place yourself in their shoes, but those are some of the things that weigh on people's minds in this discussion. It's also easy to dismiss them as being "a long time ago," but as I mentioned above, people still remember, and for them America has been good to them, but it wasn't ever really fair. Ideally this country should be a meritocracy where if you work hard, you can feed your family, make a decent wage, and be well off in your later years assuming you make wise financial decisions. But, the reality of the situation is that our country is not, nor has it ever been a meritocracy. So for myself, advocating for equality, and celebrating diversity are ways that we can make progress towards creating that idealistic version of America that we all want to believe in.

Sorry for the long post, and we can get back to soccer soon. I just felt it was important to say that.

cudevil
Post #55
Thursday August 10, 2017 7:07pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 524
Someone will have to explain to me why overt racism should be met with anything other than scorn, ridicule, and derision.

dolcem
Post #56
Thursday August 10, 2017 8:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,742
Original post from SamHays1999

Whew, this escalated. And both sides of the political spectrum on here looked awful too, this is why everyone moving toward the center-left, center-right, libertarian, etc etc. (Me personally, the Libertarian side).


There's only one side of the political spectrum represented in the US.

I feel bad about insulting blaise, and for that I apologized. But I don't think it's as bad though as saying "I don't like living near Indian people." Surely racism is worse than overreacting to racism?

Also, your conception of the American political spectrum is ill-informed. There is no left in America. Since the Reagan Revolution, the policies and discourse of the two parties have shifted steadily rightward (it started with the Democrats even before that). Our labor movement was never that strong to begin with and is now politically irrelevant. If Obama or the Clintons ran in the 1970's they'd be Republicans, and if Eisenhower, Nixon, or Ford ran today, they'd be Democrats. On social issues, America has become steadily more liberal, especially in the past decade (e.g. marijuana, gay marriage, etc.). If you don't know the difference between left and liberal, look it up.

Any European country's center-left and left parties (even in a two-party system) are far to the left of the Democrats. For example, the French version of the Democrats is called the Socialist Party, and they also have a left-wing party called Front de Gauche that is probably to the left of our Green Party that won nearly 25% of the vote in the first round of the presidential election this year. And of course the Democrats would probably be equivalent to the conservative parties in these northern European countries.

Original post from SamHays1999

And going forward a little bit more on this: I do think blaise is a bit extreme, but the holier-than-thou or super outrage response to him is why the Democrats have the least amount of power they've had in nearly a century and why they're probably still going to lose to Trump in 2020 and why they did in 2016 (which had a ton of Obama voters in 2008, or even both 08 and 12, go to Trump). This stuff like calling him a Klansman, come tf guys. You're watering down these terms for the actual Klansman and Nazis/Neo-Nazis (although those are now down to below 6 figures in people), handing them to people who are just sick of the moral grandstanding in our political climate right now from the left. It really turns people away (including my generation, who is actually the most conservative 18 and under gen in the US since WW2 because of it), just some advice there. Peace.


"A bit?" I think the issue here is that you've grown up in a very conservative area and have a high tolerance for bigotry. Not saying that you're a bigot, but you hear this kind of crap a lot so you think it's not that bad. I'm no PC nazi, and I agree with a lot of the criticisms of how insanely PC our culture has become, but it's important at least make a little bit of effort to be respectful of other people and cultures and not say stuff that you don't think is prejudiced but might actually be, and there should be social pressures against the type of ignorance that was displayed in blaise's posts. The problem with America is that in a lot of regions, it's cool to be a meatheaded bigot (it's seen as masculine), and those values need to change. That means reminding people that it is actually uncool to be a bigot.

The moral condescension of the Democrats was a contributing factor to their loss of the election (by electoral college) but certainly not the reason, as you stated in your post. And I'd say your posts contains more of it as mine did. You might view yourself as more enlightened than both sides in the discourse but you're a little young for that type of thinking.

Only one person called him a klansman (which was wrong) and again, you can't argue that such a response to such blatant racism is nearly as bad as the comments that were made to begin with. The two sides in that argument are not on even moral ground, especially considering that blaise's intention was most likely to troll us. An overreaction on our part is very understandable.

I'd certainly rather be careful about not perpetuating the subtle forms of racism that exist within our culture and defensive of society's most oppressed groups than be a racist. Too much of a good thing (being PC and not being prejudiced) is much preferable to too much of a bad thing (racism).
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johnvuke
Dallas
Post #57
Thursday August 10, 2017 8:47pm

Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts: 24
What I miss?

And a starting 11 california team begins and ends with Wondolowski. therefore, there is really no need for a theoretical game, which means, no need for this thread, which means I did in fact miss nothing.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #58
Saturday August 12, 2017 8:29am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Original post from tylercocinas

First, thank you for being willing to dialogue respectfully without insults, irrespective of your position on the issues being discussed.

Second, I agree that there are human rights violations occurring globally, so it is accurate to say that not all cultures are treated equally. However, I don't think that is what Blaise was getting at, so I view your statement and his as distinct and two separate conversations. There were Trump voters who are racist, and I think we need to be able to acknowledge that fact. Not all, as I have lifelong friends who voted for him who are people who would give me the shirt off their back if I needed it, but some were. I only wish we could get to a place where we could acknowledge that fact. I also agree that the overuse of the words "racist," "klansmen," etc. has made them common insults when they should and still are, much more.

But just to provide an example, even his campaign slogan had a duality about it. Make America Great Again. It could be taken as a return to better times economically, and when safety wasn't the concern that it is today, but we can't forget that those better times weren't quite that for everyone. This is before our time, but we as a nation had to pass congressional legislation, and have Supreme Court rulings, to protect the right of minorities to vote, and to allow minorities to use the same facilities as others. My parents for example who just turned 60, went to segregated schools as children. My grandparents went to segregated schools their entire lives, and didn't have the right to go to "Whites Only" establishments. So this is very real for people who are still alive. The "War on Drugs" destroyed communities and incarcerated thousands in the 80s and created in part, the climate of fear surrounding minorities and the police. My home, the District of Columbia, was particularly impacted by this.

I know it's hard to see from other people's perspectives sometimes, and place yourself in their shoes, but those are some of the things that weigh on people's minds in this discussion. It's also easy to dismiss them as being "a long time ago," but as I mentioned above, people still remember, and for them America has been good to them, but it wasn't ever really fair. Ideally this country should be a meritocracy where if you work hard, you can feed your family, make a decent wage, and be well off in your later years assuming you make wise financial decisions. But, the reality of the situation is that our country is not, nor has it ever been a meritocracy. So for myself, advocating for equality, and celebrating diversity are ways that we can make progress towards creating that idealistic version of America that we all want to believe in.

Sorry for the long post, and we can get back to soccer soon. I just felt it was important to say that.


Really enjoyed this post, very good. Even with some of the crap from both sides in this, this really is important, discussion is needed badly. Being someone who is going to college soon, I really hope I can have more discussions like this where both sides can respectfully debate.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #59
Saturday August 12, 2017 8:43am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Original post from cudevil

Someone will have to explain to me why overt racism should be met with anything other than scorn, ridicule, and derision.


Unfit buzzwords don't make the discussion, they kill it. Basically calling Blaise a Nazi or Klansman is like what he was saying it return, calling all of you PC pussies and all that, or if I came out and called you all Soviets/Stalin-lovers. If you want to get my generation (the most conservative and libertarian generation at my age group (13-18) since WW2), which is getting ready to vote in upcoming elections now, on your side, you will be able to do it by winning debates with intelligence, not mindless insults or silencing the other side (i.e. Milo Yiannopoulos speeches being shut down or right wing social media accounts getting deleted). Don't like these people? Don't shut them down, beat them in debate with facts and reason, no matter how awful you find their point of view.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #60
Saturday August 12, 2017 8:59am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 156
Original post from dolcem

There's only one side of the political spectrum represented in the US.

I feel bad about insulting blaise, and for that I apologized. But I don't think it's as bad though as saying "I don't like living near Indian people." Surely racism is worse than overreacting to racism?

Also, your conception of the American political spectrum is ill-informed. There is no left in America. Since the Reagan Revolution, the policies and discourse of the two parties have shifted steadily rightward (it started with the Democrats even before that). Our labor movement was never that strong to begin with and is now politically irrelevant. If Obama or the Clintons ran in the 1970's they'd be Republicans, and if Eisenhower, Nixon, or Ford ran today, they'd be Democrats. On social issues, America has become steadily more liberal, especially in the past decade (e.g. marijuana, gay marriage, etc.). If you don't know the difference between left and liberal, look it up.

Any European country's center-left and left parties (even in a two-party system) are far to the left of the Democrats. For example, the French version of the Democrats is called the Socialist Party, and they also have a left-wing party called Front de Gauche that is probably to the left of our Green Party that won nearly 25% of the vote in the first round of the presidential election this year. And of course the Democrats would probably be equivalent to the conservative parties in these northern European countries.


Firstly, I do think calling someone who says some things you disagree (or even in this case, we all disagree) with an actual Nazi or Klansman is almost as bad, if not as bad. It's watering down the terms and is actually pretty insulting to the people whose relatives are victims of these people. I'm sure a vast majority of the relatives of Hitler's victims see the posts about Democrats calling Republicans Nazis and get angry, and I know people who do have that reaction of anger to that. As for the "there is no true left in America", I'm just speaking in regards to our political climate. Even if the left in our country is still actually centrist or right-leaning, it's still our left, so that's what I'm referring to. And with the "Obama and Clintons would be Republicans, Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford would be Democrats", I assume you are talking about the Southern Strategy (?), which I do hear about a lot, but then I always ponder then why 60s Democrat JFK is put in such high regard by today's Democrats, but maybe that's just me.

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