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mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #1
Thursday May 18, 2017 7:52pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 1,872
Are jersey number-position names just a useless piece of jargon at this point?

In other words, does it make the game a little harder to understand for newbies without adding anything but a trivial piece of soccer history to the discussion for those who know it? Does it just add to a false understanding of the game?

Here's an example: even calling someone a #10 in a 4-2-3-1 and a #10 in a 4-4-2 diamond is confusing. You had better have some second striker qualities in the first one, where they aren't especially necessary in the second one.

Another: what's a #6 in a 4-2-3-1? It's nobody, really. The '2' have to have a specific mix of skills suited to that spot in a 4-2-3-1, they don't have to be the ultimate head-hunting '#6' from days of yore.

A third: Why call the 2 sides of the diamond in a 4-4-2 diamond '#8s'? Don't they need to be part '#8's' and part wings, at least if you're trying to score?

Why call a wing a #7 or #11? What does it add to the conversation?
How have you said anything more about how that player is going to play wing in that formation? If you want useless jargon, why not just say "gniw" and when people ask what a "gniw" is, just tell them it means "wing"?

Rey Regicide
Post #2
Thursday May 18, 2017 8:11pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
Yea

very good points.

the role of positions in a sport like soccer only mean something if they serve to exclude functions from the guy you're limiting.

like for instance, a CDM, what is a CDM?

in theory it's a guy who "holds" right? What he's NOT allowed to do is vacate space in front of the CB's or defensive line, and his main job is to make sure after a turnover the lines get held.

but that doesn't define what he can do with the ball

is he a guy like a pirlo? who sends balls fromt he deep position?

Kante when he goes off on nimble dribbles, ala diarra too at times.

is he a cover 2 guy, someone in space looking to pick out passes telling other people to move, or is he a guy who's tackling everything he sees and needs the Terry's and Cahill's to provide the camp coverage?

Baseball it's easy, it's where you are.

football it's defined by the rulebooks cause they love that bureaucratic stuff in the NFL

basketball is probably most like footy, what's a center? Is Stoudemire (Amar'e) a center? when he was playing for the suns? his movements were almost like a guard, slashing and cutting and shooting jumpers.

Rey Regicide
Post #3
Thursday May 18, 2017 8:13pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
tech the onl position is a goalie right, because by the rules he's allowed to use his hands

everyone lines up and either through modeling their game and then being given instruction sets perform their function

but they're not differentiated by anything other than what they carry out

Dave
Post #4
Friday May 19, 2017 4:49am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 690
While I agree that the sport has moved away from many of the traditional definitions associated with jersey numbers....some still carry weight. For instance.....
5, 7 & 11 aren't really used by many fans anymore. Most will just call them Wingers, Wide midfielders, or Center Backs.

# 10's use to be creative types who didn't have any defensive responsibilities that the offense revolved around. In today's game all players are required to contribute to the defense so the definition has morphed somewhat into a player who can/does create the majority of the scoring opportunities (Finds that final pass, constantly beats defenders 1 v 1 to get high % shots off, etc....). This has broadened the definition and what positions it can apply to.

However, the # 6 (CDM) role hasn't changed all that much. They are still the CM who acts as the shield to the defensive line by hanging back/deeper than the rest of the team. They can shield as either a Destroyer type....hard tackling Bruisers, or as Cerebral type who slow down the opposition through positioning and angles...chocking off the passing lanes.

The other one that hasn't changed too much is the #9...Target Striker. They're the one furthest up the field who maintain possession through hold-up play with their back to goal and/or through physical interaction with the oppositions CBs. However with the introduction of the False 9 even that position/role has been broadened.

In nearly every formation (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 diamond) the team has a dedicated #6. The only formation I can think of that doesn't use one is the flat 4-4-2 (empty bucket) which relies on 2 #8's to share the responsibility of the CDM role...trading off with one another for who goes forward....and who stays deeper.

#8 is more of a hybrid of the traditional #6 and #10 roles. CM's who can/will get into the oppositions penalty area when their team is in possession (late runs), has the ability to beat defenders on the dribble, but who'll also slow down the opposition when there team doesn't have possession of the ball...either through hard tackles or positioning. This has basically become the catch all for any central player not a traditional #6 or #10.

A couple other things to take into consideration....1) While to the general population of Americans are fairly new to the sport, and therefore Jersey numbers to describe positions is foreign...to the rest of the world it's ingrained in them what jersey number mean/represent. 2) Some of the numbers/positions hold particular significance under certain cultures. #10's are strongly linked to Brazil/Argentina/SA. #7 have special significance to many English/Dutch. While #6 & #5's are most notably linked to Germany. Call it cultural, generational, or what have you....for some of us the jersey number's still provide insight in conversation or commentary.

dolcem
Post #5
Friday May 19, 2017 10:37am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Also, in different countries, the numbers mean different things. In Argentina, CMs are called #5s, and a regular 4-4-2 with two CMs is called a "doble cinco."
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MSantoine
Post #6
Friday May 19, 2017 11:13am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,708
I agree its like football. Qbs are 10,11, 12, 16, etc. WRs are in the 80s. It just makes it easier to recognize for casual fans, or fans when its a team you arent familiar with. Some random Italian team can come to US for preseason matches and you know who their best offensive players likely are (9,10,11).

Rey Regicide
Post #7
Friday May 19, 2017 1:01pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
We as a soccer nation should be at the forefront of coming up with new styles

I can envision Cameron going nuts and saying f the world and just moving up the lines like a CDM in some plays, even possibly as a second forward in others

crazy? hell yea, but so too was zonal marking throughout a match

the original numbers scheme you are talking about is heavily english. when they met the hungarian national team led by puskas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary_7%E2%80%931_England_(1954_association_football_friendly)

There was the 7 - 1 drubbing, succeeding a 6 - 3 smack in Wembley!!! =O

English players wore a number and stayed in positions, like a third baseman would, like a tight end would.

The Hungarian players went everywhere and took the man marking defenders out of position leaving HUMONGOUS overlaps. The english were robotic, non fluid, not up to speed with modern football. (Who's a nerd now? =D ) The press blamed their complacency and lack of will.

The US should be at the forefront of coming up with their own style of play since we can't match others.

Yea this is taking into account our perhaps less than ideal technical backgrounds. If all we have are athletic bodies who are fit, then perhaps we should be pressing the HELL out of teams and turning it into a track meet. Cameron starting at CB going everywhere on the field would almost be like an inverted false 10 that Cryuff pioneered. ( I don't think Beckenbauer was given free range.)

And our forwards like Altidore, etc will be asked to race back and defend. Something like Guardiola's ploy against Barca in the first Bayern game. You want a technical game? Let's see how you like it when we're tagging guys instead of chasing passes.

TheTruth
Post #8
Friday May 19, 2017 10:17pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
Of course 6, 8 , 9, and 10 are useful. I think even the biggest morons in these forums understand their limitations.

dolcem
Post #9
Saturday May 20, 2017 10:01am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Original post from Rey Regicide

We as a soccer nation should be at the forefront of coming up with new styles

I can envision Cameron going nuts and saying f the world and just moving up the lines like a CDM in some plays, even possibly as a second forward in others

crazy? hell yea, but so too was zonal marking throughout a match

the original numbers scheme you are talking about is heavily english. when they met the hungarian national team led by puskas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary_7%E2%80%931_England_(1954_association_football_friendly)

There was the 7 - 1 drubbing, succeeding a 6 - 3 smack in Wembley!!! =O

English players wore a number and stayed in positions, like a third baseman would, like a tight end would.

The Hungarian players went everywhere and took the man marking defenders out of position leaving HUMONGOUS overlaps. The english were robotic, non fluid, not up to speed with modern football. (Who's a nerd now? =D ) The press blamed their complacency and lack of will.

The US should be at the forefront of coming up with their own style of play since we can't match others.

Yea this is taking into account our perhaps less than ideal technical backgrounds. If all we have are athletic bodies who are fit, then perhaps we should be pressing the HELL out of teams and turning it into a track meet. Cameron starting at CB going everywhere on the field would almost be like an inverted false 10 that Cryuff pioneered. ( I don't think Beckenbauer was given free range.)

And our forwards like Altidore, etc will be asked to race back and defend. Something like Guardiola's ploy against Barca in the first Bayern game. You want a technical game? Let's see how you like it when we're tagging guys instead of chasing passes.


Sure, there are tactical innovations in soccer, but nowadays they typically don't come from second-tier national teams, especially when said teams don't have anyone on the same planet as Cruyff or Puskas.
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