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mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #46
Tuesday April 11, 2017 9:44pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,144
I am not huge on MB or JA, but I'm ultimately not sure I can fault them for wanting to get paid much, much more. If it was 5% more to play at a way lower level, and thereby stunt their growth and impact on the nat'l team, I would blame.
But it was like 100% more, wasn't it?

Now, that said, if you want to talk about replacing them USNT or having them challenged more, I am absolutely on board, and I have been for a long-ass time.

dolcem
Post #47
Tuesday April 11, 2017 10:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,744
Original post from mmee

I am not huge on MB or JA, but I'm ultimately not sure I can fault them for wanting to get paid much, much more. If it was 5% more to play at a way lower level, and thereby stunt their growth and impact on the nat'l team, I would blame.
But it was like 100% more, wasn't it?

Now, that said, if you want to talk about replacing them USNT or having them challenged more, I am absolutely on board, and I have been for a long-ass time.


The dude was already a millionaire and had his whole career ahead of him. Had he stuck it out at Roma, he would have eventually gotten plenty of PT and might have made the move to another club, maybe even a bigger one as a squad player, and they might have paid more. He would have gotten this huge contract anyway when coming back to the MLS (ideally in 2018 after the World Cup, or even later...he could have played many, many years in Europe). Now that he came over here too early, I bet his next contract will be worth much less (especially that after this World Cup, he might even be out of the NT picture, because his form doesn't merit it and no one is thinking we'll need him in 2022). It won't be that long before he isn't even DP material anymore. So I don't even think that it was necessarily a prudent financial decision.

But the worst part about it was that he did this at the beginning of 2014. He couldn't have waited until after the World Cup at least??? They could have easily signed the transfer agreement and made it for July 1st, and that way he would have been in form. Instead, he didn't play any soccer for about three months, and then suited up for a crap MLS team (Toronto was awful at that point) a few weeks before the World Cup. And people were surprised that he was our worst field player by far.

He should've been lambasted by the media and public for his selfishness but no one called him out on it, partly because he's a son of US soccer and partly because no one wants to admit that the MLS is nowhere near the top European leagues.
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Rey Regicide
Post #48
Wednesday April 12, 2017 1:50pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,910
Noone's faulting them. They should take the money.

The issue is when Bruce Arena says "we couldn't buy you guys coffee"

ask yourselves who's paying for that coffee at the US MNT press release.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #49
Wednesday April 12, 2017 4:01pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 191
I dont fault him for coming back. Take the money, it is what we all try to do everyday, make more money right? He probably thought he did somewhat prove himself overseas, he had a kid, they probably wanted to be around family, and make more money can't fault him. He was playing great when he was overseas.

HOWEVER, your actions have consequences. So why I don't fault him for coming back, he should not be "captain America" His form the last couple of years has been shaky.

People like him b.c he runs, he runs to much to know where, but that he also tries, he used to be the guy flying into tackles all the time, and had that work hard american attitude, which I love but.....

For the good of the team he needs to sit (still needs to be in the 23) but we need to try new players out to see who can gel wit the team the best.

Think of it this way, if Acosta or Dwills, or Hyndam was given an automatic starting spot for 30 games would they help the team more than bradley?

We need to give others a run and then we can all see who is the best, at the end of the day if its bradley fine, at least we tried, but at this point we are potentially stunting the teams growth b.c we are scared that we would offend the captain?

For me, Cameron can fill that spot alot better than bradley, but we also need to see younger guys, even if bradley is an auto starter in the world cup the guy runs endlessly he will get tired, someone has to be ready to step in....
Stoked
dolcem
Post #50
Wednesday April 12, 2017 9:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,744
If he wanted to come back to the MLS for the money why didn't he wait until July 1st and finish the season out with Roma? He could have easily had the transfer take place on July 1st. That way he would have been in form for the World Cup. Instead he went three months without soccer and then started playing again a few weeks befote the World Cup for one of the worst MLS teams.

It's not just that he went for the money. It's that he took absolutely nothing else into account in his decision. His teammates, the fans...they weren't even considered.
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Know Nothing
Post #51
Wednesday April 12, 2017 10:12pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,188
In all likelihood he would would not have gotten any minutes at Roma after the decision was made to move. Why would they turn to a player who was leaving...the smart decision from Roma's standpoint would have been let him train with the reserves and move on to his successor.

So then your choices are no minutes for 6 months or 3 months off followed by 90 MLS minutes week in week out. Hmmmm, tough choice there!

Know Nothing
Post #52
Wednesday April 12, 2017 10:17pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,188
I am going to get some stick for this, but he is our Gerrard. Great engine, always moving...looks good doing it but in the end....nothing. Gerrard looked great playing, but he was always getting himself out of position forcing others to leave their positions to cover for him. Great if you can build a team around him to compensate for that, but problems if you can't.

dolcem
Post #53
Wednesday April 12, 2017 11:13pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,744
Original post from Know Nothing

In all likelihood he would would not have gotten any minutes at Roma after the decision was made to move. Why would they turn to a player who was leaving...the smart decision from Roma's standpoint would have been let him train with the reserves and move on to his successor.

So then your choices are no minutes for 6 months or 3 months off followed by 90 MLS minutes week in week out. Hmmmm, tough choice there!


Players leaving on a transfer don't get sent to the reserves unless they've had some sort of disagreement with everyone else. If he continued to work hard, he'd still get minutes off of the bench, or even start if there were injuries (which is exactly what happened after he left). Training with some of the world's best players and coaches and getting occasional minutes would have been a lot better than taking three months off from the game and then playing a few games with a train wreck of an MLS team. The proof is in the pudding: Bradley's decision cost him his form, as he was god awful in the World Cup.

Original post from Know Nothing

I am going to get some stick for this, but he is our Gerrard. Great engine, always moving...looks good doing it but in the end....nothing. Gerrard looked great playing, but he was always getting himself out of position forcing others to leave their positions to cover for him. Great if you can build a team around him to compensate for that, but problems if you can't.


Yeah, you'll get some stick for it. Not a good comparison at all, not even close. First of all, they're totally different type of players. Gerrard was a #10, Bradley a #8. Bradley could play as a #10, but not as a creative #10 like Gerrard did.

Gerrard was one of the greatest footballers of his generation. Bradley played at a pretty high level for about two seasons.

Gerrard could take a game by the scruff of its neck. When did Bradley ever do that? I mean he had some good games, but he never did anything more than put in a good shift.

Sure, Bradley played very well in the 2010 World Cup, but he had had the whole team built around him for years, and we suffered for it.

Bradley, even at his peak, was never the best field player on the team. That would've been Donovan (before he lost his motivation) or Dempsey. Now it's probably Wood.

We've never had a Gerrard. The most dangerous player we ever had was Donovan, and he was still a bit inconsistent and never really quite good enough to carry the team on his back.
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stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #54
Wednesday April 12, 2017 11:20pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 191
Original post from dolcem

If he wanted to come back to the MLS for the money why didn't he wait until July 1st and finish the season out with Roma? He could have easily had the transfer take place on July 1st. That way he would have been in form for the World Cup. Instead he went three months without soccer and then started playing again a few weeks befote the World Cup for one of the worst MLS teams.

It's not just that he went for the money. It's that he took absolutely nothing else into account in his decision. His teammates, the fans...they weren't even considered.


Who knows, maybe he was hedging, players know when they are not in their best form; he also knew he would probably play a position thats not his best, attacking mid, for us as JK wanted-so maybe he anticipated a dip in his form and figured the offer made was the his best offer and it could only go down with a bad world cup.

IF you were Toronto or any other club would you have paid more for Bradley after the world cup ?

So from a business standpoint it made sense.

However, I agree from a soccer standpoint not the best decision whatsoever.
Stoked
TheTruth
Post #55
Thursday April 13, 2017 2:16am

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
This is a bunch of random, speculative diarrhea once again. Turned out to be a good thing he got the fat contract before 2014 WC, right, since he bit ass at it? I would have given him $9M or whatever the hell it was before the WC, but I wouldn't have given him that after.

Maybe his body has aged early. Lando's did. Those guys ran a shit ton. But who knows and that's the point. At least approach the speculative horseshit with some humility and appreciation for what you don't know.

And what kinda nimrod makes career decisions based on what's best for their co-workers? Yeah, I'm staying with my current job because I help out Janice in accounting a lot and I want to continue doing that. For fuck's sake. Uh, how about, maybe I'm offered a much better job (or at least I THINK it's much better) and it pays double. Oh no, I want to stay w/ Janice in accounting because I love my country and going to that new company really would be showing such disdain for Janice and my country. For fuck's sake. Oooh, sorry a few of my fans didn't like my career choice. I mean wtf? We're not talking about Fredy Adu being a damn DJ here.

Know Nothing
Post #56
Thursday April 13, 2017 3:00pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,188
Original post from dolcem

Players leaving on a transfer don't get sent to the reserves unless they've had some sort of disagreement with everyone else. If he continued to work hard, he'd still get minutes off of the bench, or even start if there were injuries (which is exactly what happened after he left). Training with some of the world's best players and coaches and getting occasional minutes would have been a lot better than taking three months off from the game and then playing a few games with a train wreck of an MLS team. The proof is in the pudding: Bradley's decision cost him his form, as he was god awful in the World Cup.



You are basing this on star players who are going to move but are essential to the teams success. I don't think MB fits that category with regards to Roma.

Football is a business, especially in the top leagues. If you have an asset that is not essential and will become obsolete soon would you not stop giving resources towards it and instead put resources towards developing the replacement?

Know Nothing
Post #57
Thursday April 13, 2017 3:09pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,188
Original post from dolcem

Yeah, you'll get some stick for it. Not a good comparison at all, not even close. First of all, they're totally different type of players. Gerrard was a #10, Bradley a #8. Bradley could play as a #10, but not as a creative #10 like Gerrard did.

Gerrard was one of the greatest footballers of his generation. Bradley played at a pretty high level for about two seasons.

Gerrard could take a game by the scruff of its neck. When did Bradley ever do that? I mean he had some good games, but he never did anything more than put in a good shift.

Sure, Bradley played very well in the 2010 World Cup, but he had had the whole team built around him for years, and we suffered for it.

Bradley, even at his peak, was never the best field player on the team. That would've been Donovan (before he lost his motivation) or Dempsey. Now it's probably Wood.

We've never had a Gerrard. The most dangerous player we ever had was Donovan, and he was still a bit inconsistent and never really quite good enough to carry the team on his back.


I'll stick with my comparison.

Gerrard had passion. And while he was trying to take the game by the scruff of his neck, he was leaving his teammates to cover for him. Gerrard was never the most important player on his team. He looked like it because he was all over the field. Xabi Alonso when he was there allowed Gerrard to be the rover he was.

When Gerrard was asked to play a deeper role and take on more leadership he wasn't the same player as his instincts were always to attack.

Rey Regicide
Post #58
Thursday April 13, 2017 7:24pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,910
Original post from dolcem

Players leaving on a transfer don't get sent to the reserves unless they've had some sort of disagreement with everyone else. If he continued to work hard, he'd still get minutes off of the bench, or even start if there were injuries (which is exactly what happened after he left). Training with some of the world's best players and coaches and getting occasional minutes would have been a lot better than taking three months off from the game and then playing a few games with a train wreck of an MLS team. The proof is in the pudding: Bradley's decision cost him his form, as he was god awful in the World Cup.

Yeah, you'll get some stick for it. Not a good comparison at all, not even close. First of all, they're totally different type of players. Gerrard was a #10, Bradley a #8. Bradley could play as a #10, but not as a creative #10 like Gerrard did.

Gerrard was one of the greatest footballers of his generation. Bradley played at a pretty high level for about two seasons.

Gerrard could take a game by the scruff of its neck. When did Bradley ever do that? I mean he had some good games, but he never did anything more than put in a good shift.

Sure, Bradley played very well in the 2010 World Cup, but he had had the whole team built around him for years, and we suffered for it.

Bradley, even at his peak, was never the best field player on the team. That would've been Donovan (before he lost his motivation) or Dempsey. Now it's probably Wood.

We've never had a Gerrard. The most dangerous player we ever had was Donovan, and he was still a bit inconsistent and never really quite good enough to carry the team on his back.


I think he meant that functionally Gerrard represented Bradley's evolved form. Clearly Gerrard was world class. Bradley was a box to box player. Gerrard was the same. Bradley was never best at a CDM, neither was Gerrard. Gerrard was infinitely better than Bradley.

It's just like when I said Pulisic had Messi like qualities.. I've heard people from the US note how short Pulisic's steps are, he basically chops when he runs keeping the ball real close. HE is NOT Messi. But that aspect, that quality he exhibited. Also, that Messi came in as a Right sided left footed forward. Pulisic can do damage on the left side for us. The ultimate compliment, functionally speaking that is, would be if Pulisic learned how to play the false 9. Which is basically running our midfield aNd our attacking line at the same time lol. I'm laughing at the prospect of that.

dolcem
Post #59
Thursday April 13, 2017 9:56pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,744
Original post from stoked3

Who knows, maybe he was hedging, players know when they are not in their best form; he also knew he would probably play a position thats not his best, attacking mid, for us as JK wanted-so maybe he anticipated a dip in his form and figured the offer made was the his best offer and it could only go down with a bad world cup.

IF you were Toronto or any other club would you have paid more for Bradley after the world cup ?

So from a business standpoint it made sense.

However, I agree from a soccer standpoint not the best decision whatsoever.


I didn't say wait until after the World Cup to sign the contract. I said sign the contract and have the transfer take place on July 1st. This happens all of the time. From a business standpoint, it equally would have made sense. It was a massive coup for Toronto to have gotten him, and they would have offered the same exact contract had the transfer not taken place until the 1st. My guess is that Bradley couldn't wait the 6 months for his new salary to start. He wanted the money then and there. Which I think is pretty lame considering he's a millionaire.

Original post from Know Nothing

You are basing this on star players who are going to move but are essential to the teams success. I don't think MB fits that category with regards to Roma.

Football is a business, especially in the top leagues. If you have an asset that is not essential and will become obsolete soon would you not stop giving resources towards it and instead put resources towards developing the replacement?


No, I'm not basing it off of star players. A manager wants to win. He'll pick the players that will help him best do that. Roma had injuries in the second half of the season (which was to be expected, given Garcia's style of play), and Bradley would have gotten plenty of minutes. Every season there are players that are outbound, either because their contracts are about to end or because they have been sold. Very often they continue playing. I don't know where you get this bit about them going to the reserves.

Original post from Know Nothing

I'll stick with my comparison.

Gerrard had passion. And while he was trying to take the game by the scruff of his neck, he was leaving his teammates to cover for him. Gerrard was never the most important player on his team. He looked like it because he was all over the field. Xabi Alonso when he was there allowed Gerrard to be the rover he was.

When Gerrard was asked to play a deeper role and take on more leadership he wasn't the same player as his instincts were always to attack.


Gerrard was a #10 in a 4-5-1. Their system was designed so that he did not really have defensive responsibilities. That's because they needed him feeding balls into Torres and more importantly, he was that good. There are a few world class players at there that should not waste their energy defending, and you have to have the right system to accommodate them (and there's never room for more than one in a team). And this worked. Liverpool won a Champions League playing like this. Bradley sure as shit was never one of these guys, and we weren't really all that good in the 2010 World Cup, when he had the whole team built around him. He had nowhere near the talent to justify it.

When Gerrard had to play deeper, he wasn't as good, because it wasn't his position. Bradley has played as a #6, a #8, and a #10 throughout his career. I just don't see any similarity between the two at all.

Original post from Rey Regicide

I think he meant that functionally Gerrard represented Bradley's evolved form. Clearly Gerrard was world class. Bradley was a box to box player. Gerrard was the same. Bradley was never best at a CDM, neither was Gerrard. Gerrard was infinitely better than Bradley.

It's just like when I said Pulisic had Messi like qualities.. I've heard people from the US note how short Pulisic's steps are, he basically chops when he runs keeping the ball real close. HE is NOT Messi. But that aspect, that quality he exhibited. Also, that Messi came in as a Right sided left footed forward. Pulisic can do damage on the left side for us. The ultimate compliment, functionally speaking that is, would be if Pulisic learned how to play the false 9. Which is basically running our midfield aNd our attacking line at the same time lol. I'm laughing at the prospect of that.


No, they weren't the same. Bradley's natural position is the #8. Gerrard is a #10. He's a creative #10 at that. Functionally, they were not alike. Bradley did play as the #10 while at Herenveen and in the latter years of Klinsmann's tenure, but that doesn't warrant a Gerrard comparison.
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dolcem
Post #60
Thursday April 13, 2017 10:09pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,744
Original post from TheTruth

This is a bunch of random, speculative diarrhea once again. Turned out to be a good thing he got the fat contract before 2014 WC, right, since he bit ass at it? I would have given him $9M or whatever the hell it was before the WC, but I wouldn't have given him that after.

Maybe his body has aged early. Lando's did. Those guys ran a shit ton. But who knows and that's the point. At least approach the speculative horseshit with some humility and appreciation for what you don't know.

And what kinda nimrod makes career decisions based on what's best for their co-workers? Yeah, I'm staying with my current job because I help out Janice in accounting a lot and I want to continue doing that. For fuck's sake. Uh, how about, maybe I'm offered a much better job (or at least I THINK it's much better) and it pays double. Oh no, I want to stay w/ Janice in accounting because I love my country and going to that new company really would be showing such disdain for Janice and my country. For fuck's sake. Oooh, sorry a few of my fans didn't like my career choice. I mean wtf? We're not talking about Fredy Adu being a damn DJ here.


This deserves its own post.

Bradley's form has nothing to do with aging. There's no way that you can tell me Bradley lost his ability to pass and trap the ball and read the game in his mid 20's. It has everything to do with the fact that he moved to a second-tier league. Why can't people just admit that?

We're having a discussion about what we think of Michael Bradley. It's pretty hard to do that without some sort of speculation. If you don't like it, go post in another thread. I prefer talking about this to posting my PES lineup.

And as for the Janice from accounting argument, we get it. You think that being a professional athlete is just like any other job. We've had this discussion before. But I think you're pretty much the only person here that thinks that. The reality is that it's nothing like any other job, and that's why we're here on this forum talking about it. Millions of people don't watch Janice in accounting. Millions of people don't fork over their hard-earned money so that Janice in accounting can make millions of dollars to kick a ball around. Not every soccer player is a total mercenary. Yeah, there are plenty of guys like Nicolas Anelka and Shaun Wright-Phillips out there. But most people don't like them and many actively root against them. As a fan, I sure as shit wouldn't want either one near my national team, no matter how talented they are. And I wouldn't root for them, either.

There are also plenty of people like Francesco Totti. Guys that turned down millions of dollars because of their loyalty to their clubs, teammates, and fans. These are people who play for the glory of the game, which is what everyone else played for up until very recently, when big Asian TV deals started to turn the sport into a huge business. More importantly, guys like Bradley and Oscar are not the norm. I think just about any soccer player out there could get a bigger contract in China, and hardly any of them do it. Don't give me some BS about MLS being better than China. Of course it is, but the principal is the same. Winning the MLS Cup means a lot less than winning Serie A, and while most players could get more money playing as a DP in the MLS, they choose not to, because money isn't the only thing that they care about. The glory of competing is just as important to them, probably because they're already millionaires.

I'm not criticizing Michael Bradley for moving to the MLS. I get it, money was more important to him than the game itself. But what was lame was that he could have moved after the World Cup. It was so simple. But he literally didn't care. The only thing that factored into his decision was the money. His teammates, the fans, his career did not matter one bit. And I think most players aren't like that.

I know one thing is for sure. Brian McBride sure as shit would have had that transfer take place on July 1st. People always treated Bradley like he was a warrior and a competitor who embodied the true spirit of the game and what we'd want from a national team. Captain America and all of that. People thought he was like Brian McBride or Steve Cherundolo or the countless other athletes, in soccer and in American sports, who turn down a bit of money for the sake of some sort of loyalty. But he's not. He's like Oscar or Hulk or Anelka. I just want people to admit that. I get that if you were a professional athlete, you wouldn't care at all about your team or the fans, and you'd sell them out for a bit of extra cash (like Figo, for example). You've made that clear. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of people actually aren't like that. And I'm not just referring to professional athletes, either. I live in India and every one of the expats working in NGOs here could be making more money in the private sector in their home countries, but they choose not to because money isn't the only thing they care about. So just keep in mind that what goes for you might not for other people.
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