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mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #136
Tuesday June 27, 2017 6:19pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
@MSantoine

I'd take Ramirez over Morris in a second.
He's doing better than Morris on a worse team, and he's a more complete forward.

Your pedigree talk on Ramirez is pretty weak.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #137
Tuesday June 27, 2017 7:38pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,595
I would have liked to have seen Ramirez. Can't deny his goal scoring form right now. A bigger and faster wondolowski type of striker.

SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #138
Tuesday June 27, 2017 9:39pm

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 198
Original post from MSantoine

Gonzalez didnt get his one time only switch approved by FIFA. They pretty much said he would have been on the team but FIFA paperwork didnt make it in time (supposedly Sayef filed back in March unbeknownst to anyone).

Id pick Guzan over Howard. Howard is older and could use the rest more. Especially in the group stages Howard playing 1-2 MLS games is better than playing Martinique and Guatemala. Maybe its already been decided that Howard comes in for the knockout round so both him and Guzan get 3 games each, only half the time commitment


That's what I said I would do for Howard, have him play the tough games (basically Panama and Knockout Round). But if Howard were to be called up for the Knockout Round, that would work fine as well. And yeah, the Gonzalez thing now makes sense, I just wanted any of the main young 3, Steffen then would've been the option.

MSantoine
Post #139
Wednesday June 28, 2017 11:22am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from mmee

@MSantoine

I'd take Ramirez over Morris in a second.
He's doing better than Morris on a worse team, and he's a more complete forward.

Your pedigree talk on Ramirez is pretty weak.


I highly doubt that the U17, U20, U23, mls, and others all missed this guy and at 26 he "should" be making a competitive tourney roster. He's like Alan Gordon and Wondo. We should be aiming higher.

Now if he keeps it up for the rest of the year (finishes with over 15 goals) then a jan camp is warranted but until then we should be looking at the players we know have talent, AND have had success (Agudelo, Dwyer, Morris).
Morris may not be playing as well this year in MLS but theres no denying his skills are superior to Ramierez

tylercocinas
Post #140
Wednesday June 28, 2017 2:45pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
Original post from MSantoine

I highly doubt that the U17, U20, U23, mls, and others all missed this guy and at 26 he "should" be making a competitive tourney roster. He's like Alan Gordon and Wondo. We should be aiming higher.

Now if he keeps it up for the rest of the year (finishes with over 15 goals) then a jan camp is warranted but until then we should be looking at the players we know have talent, AND have had success (Agudelo, Dwyer, Morris).
Morris may not be playing as well this year in MLS but theres no denying his skills are superior to Ramierez


US Soccer missed Dempsey until he got to MLS, so I cant pretend like we have a perfectly functioning talent identification system. It's a big country and good players sometimes fall through the cracks. The Gordon/Wondo comparison is a stretch to me, but at the end of the day its subjective and the only way we'll know is for him to get a look on the national team and see how he stacks up. He's no worse than Dwyer for my money. Honestly, Ramirez and Ibarra shouldve been in MLS years ago but for MLS clubs didn't want to pay what they were worth to get them. Ibarra was getting caps with USMNT and Ramirez won the golden boot twice (I think). So they weren't going to be sold for cheap and unfortunately thats how MLS clubs want to conduct their business in a lot of cases.

Know Nothing
Post #141
Wednesday June 28, 2017 3:13pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
Original post from tylercocinas

US Soccer missed Dempsey until he got to MLS, so I cant pretend like we have a perfectly functioning talent identification system. It's a big country and good players sometimes fall through the cracks. The Gordon/Wondo comparison is a stretch to me, but at the end of the day its subjective and the only way we'll know is for him to get a look on the national team and see how he stacks up. He's no worse than Dwyer for my money. Honestly, Ramirez and Ibarra shouldve been in MLS years ago but for MLS clubs didn't want to pay what they were worth to get them. Ibarra was getting caps with USMNT and Ramirez won the golden boot twice (I think). So they weren't going to be sold for cheap and unfortunately thats how MLS clubs want to conduct their business in a lot of cases.


I agree...sometimes it doesn't click at a younger age and there are late developers. These are the types of players with good work ethics that help the team along too.

Also, sometimes taking an uncapped player who is in a rich vein of form over a player not playing well can be beneficial, especially with young players. You show you reward players playing well as well as send a message to those not performing well that there is a standard to be met and they are not at that level and need to make improvements.

MSantoine
Post #142
Wednesday June 28, 2017 4:10pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from tylercocinas

US Soccer missed Dempsey until he got to MLS, so I cant pretend like we have a perfectly functioning talent identification system. It's a big country and good players sometimes fall through the cracks. The Gordon/Wondo comparison is a stretch to me, but at the end of the day its subjective and the only way we'll know is for him to get a look on the national team and see how he stacks up. He's no worse than Dwyer for my money. Honestly, Ramirez and Ibarra shouldve been in MLS years ago but for MLS clubs didn't want to pay what they were worth to get them. Ibarra was getting caps with USMNT and Ramirez won the golden boot twice (I think). So they weren't going to be sold for cheap and unfortunately thats how MLS clubs want to conduct their business in a lot of cases.


Dempsey played for US U20s at the World Cup (then called Youth Championship). He also was an MLS starter at 21. Thats a big difference then making MLS at 27.

I think Alan Gordon is a perfect comp. Gordon never played on a youth team and wasnt a MLS guy until he was 25. US gave him 2 caps when he was inform (13 goals in 2012) and he's gone back to being a journeyman, depth player that shouldnt be on a US roster. If we stuck with Gordon in 2013 and 2014 then we'd have made the wrong decision. All I'm saying is Ramirez should have to show hes more than a flash in the pan before getting national team minutes over guys who are more deserving.

Know Nothing
Post #143
Wednesday June 28, 2017 4:47pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
Original post from MSantoine

Dempsey played for US U20s at the World Cup (then called Youth Championship). He also was an MLS starter at 21. Thats a big difference then making MLS at 27.

I think Alan Gordon is a perfect comp. Gordon never played on a youth team and wasnt a MLS guy until he was 25. US gave him 2 caps when he was inform (13 goals in 2012) and he's gone back to being a journeyman, depth player that shouldnt be on a US roster. If we stuck with Gordon in 2013 and 2014 then we'd have made the wrong decision. All I'm saying is Ramirez should have to show hes more than a flash in the pan before getting national team minutes over guys who are more deserving.


While I get what you are saying, saying Gordon is the "perfect" comp is a bit of a stretch. He ideally fits the model your are trying to portray and that is a potential, and I will reluctantly admit likely, outcome.

However, on the other end of the spectrum there is Jamie Vardy.

Bottom line should be who is playing well and is a fit for the team...period. This is already an experimental lineup so why not use a slot to reward someone who is playing well as opposed to rewarding one who is not?

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #144
Wednesday June 28, 2017 5:10pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
Forcing a Gordon comparison is stupid, period.
They're different types and Ramirez is a far more complete player.
This idea that you have that players are always perfectly evaluated and no one ever breaks out is also stupid.
How much coaching have you done? Have you experienced players being under- and over-rated first hand?
Morris was nobody before, and he was playing college. Last year he had a break-out year that proved he was more consistent. Before that he scored a very few speedster goals for the USNT. Anyone could have said JK was crazy to pluck him out of obscurity. This year, that's Ramirez.
If 22 MLS clubs have 30-40 forwards who are good enough to start, the idea that everyone after #33 on developmental squads are appropriately ranked and better than the best guy in NASL is just dumb. Come on, man. Last year that was Ramirez, and this year he's doing it on a club that isn't even good. Morris did it on a good club.

Ramirez has 9 goals on like 42 shots this year. Gordon never did that.
Morris has 2 on 22 this year.

tylercocinas
Post #145
Wednesday June 28, 2017 6:14pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
Original post from MSantoine

Dempsey played for US U20s at the World Cup (then called Youth Championship). He also was an MLS starter at 21. Thats a big difference then making MLS at 27.

I think Alan Gordon is a perfect comp. Gordon never played on a youth team and wasnt a MLS guy until he was 25. US gave him 2 caps when he was inform (13 goals in 2012) and he's gone back to being a journeyman, depth player that shouldnt be on a US roster. If we stuck with Gordon in 2013 and 2014 then we'd have made the wrong decision. All I'm saying is Ramirez should have to show hes more than a flash in the pan before getting national team minutes over guys who are more deserving.


Thanks, I stand corrected on Clint. You really think he's a flash in the pan? He scored idk how many goals in NASL. Its not that much of a step down from MLS, or at least it wasnt when he and Ibarra were tearing it up. In my opinion US Soccer should have already taken a look at him. All he can do is score goals at the level he's at, which he has continued to do in MLS.

MSantoine
Post #146
Wednesday June 28, 2017 6:43pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Ramirez scored 5 goals in his first 6 games (technically 7 but 6 games worth of minutes). In that time he took 23 shots (almost 4 per game).
In his last 10 games he has 4 goals and has took 19 shots, less than 2 per game.

All I'm saying is he was a 2nd tier league guy, who had a very hot start. Take away those 6 games and he's been mediocre at best (less than a goal every other game). He should have to perform for more than 2 months to get a national team call up.

Regarding Morris he was called in for U20 & U23 camps, and had German teams salivating over him. I may not be a coach but I'll take the player that German Bundesliga teams want as a 20 year old over a guy MLS teams dont want as a 25 year old

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #147
Wednesday June 28, 2017 7:19pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
Original post from MSantoine

Take away those 6 games


You're cherry-picking. Take away 6 of 17 games, man? Come on.
You understand that he's on a bad team, right?
Morris right now is 2 goals in 22 games.

Morris' big season: 12 goals in 34 games on the team that won it all.
Can I draw a ring around 12 of those games, count them out, and say that without those games, he sucked? Or would that be bullcrap?

Sometimes people put it together later in their career. Ramirez may be doing that.
He's tied for 5th in goals right now after HALF OF THE SEASON. If you look at all the stats, any way you slice it, he's a top 20 striker right now.

The American strikers below him, just for food for thought:

Sapong (G/90 and s% compare), equally bad team, going to GC
Altidore (G/90 and s% compare), premiere team, going to GC
Agudelo (G/90 and s% compare), equally bad team, going to GC
Wondolowski (G/90 and s% do not compare), better team, going to GC
Dom Dwyer (G/90 and s% do not compare), premiere team, going to GC
Clint Dempsey (G/90 and s% do not compare), slightly better team, going to GC
Will Bruin (G/90 and s% compare), slightly better team, not going to GC
Jack McBean (G/90 and s% kinda compare), better team, not going to GC
then finally
Jordan Morris 2 goals, 0 assists in 16 games G/90 0.14 s% 9.1,
......................slightly better team, going to GC

Christian Ramirez 9 goals, 1 assist in 17 games G/90 0.56 s% 21.4

Know Nothing
Post #148
Wednesday June 28, 2017 8:01pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
Original post from MSantoine

Regarding Morris he was called in for U20 & U23 camps, and had German teams salivating over him. I may not be a coach but I'll take the player that German Bundesliga teams want as a 20 year old over a guy MLS teams dont want as a 25 year old


Yes, but no matter what his pedigree is, if he isn't playing well for his club all indications are it is unlikely he will play well for his country.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #149
Wednesday June 28, 2017 8:56pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 344
Original post from Know Nothing

Yes, but no matter what his pedigree is, if he isn't playing well for his club all indications are it is unlikely he will play well for his country.


I agree and disagree, Wondo plays great in mls, but doesn't translate to our national team, so when he was on fire scoring goals in mls it never translated into the Nats but by statistical account he is a great mls player.

I think, there are cple players who do not get alot of playing time overseas but if they were to play in MLS would tear the league up or would fair better than their counterparts

I think skill, fitness, current form should all be taken into account when calling someone in.

But for some reason some people play great for country and not club and vise versa. There is a difference in being out classed on not ready for international level and currently in a slump but has shown the talent for international level but is currently out of form.
Stoked
Know Nothing
Post #150
Thursday June 29, 2017 11:05pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
Gonzalez switch has come through...probably too late for this Gold Cup

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