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Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #136
Monday February 6, 2017 9:17pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 634
Islamic extremist declared war on our country. They have been saying that we are at war for many years now. We then act like it's a big surprise when the blow up a warship or kill some of our citizens. Every country secures it's borders. I don't know why people are making a huge deal out of a president doing what should have been done many years ago. I work in the medical field and there are many Dr.'s who are followers of Islam. They are good people. Islamic extremist are a very different sort. I pretty much feel the same why about any religious extremist. The difference is the other religious extremist have not declared a holy war on our country.

tylercocinas
Post #137
Monday February 6, 2017 10:28pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,113
Original post from stoked3

No it doesn't bother me at all in fact I applaud it. And no it wasn't unconstitutional, it was under the same constitution Obama used to suspend people from Irag.


Obama halted the immigration process for one class of immigrants (refugees), from one country. During this time other Iraqi immigrants were permitted to enter. The Trump executive order prevents all immigrants from 7 countries during the proscribed period.

Original post from stoked3
Maybe the issue isn't our vetting process but rather following and enforcing the vetting process.


I'm not attacking you here, I just wonder what you've seen/heard that substantiates your theory that the US government is not enforcing its own vetting process for refugees?

Original post from stoked3
To be clear, I am all for ANY person of ANY religion coming here to the extend they are vetting and love America, and promise to abide by our laws.


I agree, 100%. I would only add that the current process achieved all of these goals, rendering a blanket ban on immigration from the 7 countries unnecessary, extreme, and unconstitutional in that it was designed to target Muslims. The administration may have been smart enough to word the order in a way that does not mention Muslims specifically, but what we have to contradict that are statements by Trump and his team that would (hopefully) lead a court to estop the government from arguing that it's not a 'Muslim ban,' or at the very least using it as evidence to show the administrations underlying intent behind their actions.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #138
Monday February 6, 2017 11:00pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,144
The complex problems and competing virtues that our country has to confront are one thing. I am not an 'appeasement' liberal regardless of any developments that may occur.

But a president and administration of unqualified, bigoted oligarchs is another thing, and part of the potentially ruinous problem that we're facing is that the black-and-white thinking that they use in the press, and that our 2-party system forces, is not going to help us citizens think more clearly and act more rationally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psyc...

Obama and Clinton being wrong and shady doesn't make Trump right and virtuous, let alone more right and virtuous than they are/were. Some leftists being extremists and full of shit and un-American doesn't mean the right has no one like that.

The tricky part is that the un-American people on the right wrap themselves in the flag, and then so robed, shit on half of it while they're in there.

Who know more about what we need to do to combat terrorism? A celebrity rich guy whose chief skills are things like declaring corporate bankruptcy, or the CIA officials and generals with training and experience? Clinton being crap doesn't make Trump good at stuff.

The current pro-Trump people never talk about how highly qualified people in intelligence and military and center-right politics think he's dangerous garbage, do they?

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #139
Tuesday February 7, 2017 4:42am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 200
Original post from tylercocinas

Obama halted the immigration process for one class of immigrants (refugees), from one country. During this time other Iraqi immigrants were permitted to enter. The Trump executive order prevents all immigrants from 7 countries during the proscribed period.

1st Thanks for the rational disagreement, our country would make progress if those who disagreed could do so with class and try to understand the other persons position.

But if Obama was able to do it, how was it constitutional and now that Trump has it is not. Regardless, he did so out of fear of threat to our country-nobody complained. It was also Obama who made the list of the 7 countries, not Trump

I'm not attacking you here, I just wonder what you've seen/heard that substantiates your theory that the US government is not enforcing its own vetting process for refugees?

I look at our current process whereby people come in and we have no clue whom they are, the FBI director said as much during Obamas time in office. Going back to Bush, they had no clue about the hijackers.

I agree, 100%. I would only add that the current process achieved all of these goals, rendering a blanket ban on immigration from the 7 countries unnecessary, extreme, and unconstitutional in that it was designed to target Muslims. The administration may have been smart enough to word the order in a way that does not mention Muslims specifically, but what we have to contradict that are statements by Trump and his team that would (hopefully) lead a court to estop the government from arguing that it's not a 'Muslim ban,' or at the very least using it as evidence to show the administrations underlying intent behind their actions.


We have not achieved the goal of having a good vetting process, there have been many killings in the name of jihad only the media shys away as that would diminish their position. Case in point the military killing in Fort Hood was deemed to be workplace violence give me a break, Their religion teaches them kill if people do not convert. Like it or not that is part of thier religion. SO if you want to come to our country, fine, but you must be vetted. You must love our country, and follow our rules. What an irony it is that all these people are fleeing Muslim countries.
Stoked
stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #140
Tuesday February 7, 2017 4:51am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 200
Original post from mmee

The complex problems and competing virtues that our country has to confront are one thing. I am not an 'appeasement' liberal regardless of any developments that may occur.

But a president and administration of unqualified, bigoted oligarchs is another thing, and part of the potentially ruinous problem that we're facing is that the black-and-white thinking that they use in the press, and that our 2-party system forces, is not going to help us citizens think more clearly and act more rationally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psyc...

Obama and Clinton being wrong and shady doesn't make Trump right and virtuous, let alone more right and virtuous than they are/were. Some leftists being extremists and full of shit and un-American doesn't mean the right has no one like that.

I agree

The tricky part is that the un-American people on the right wrap themselves in the flag, and then so robed, shit on half of it while they're in there.

I hope you are not saying I am unAmerican

Who know more about what we need to do to combat terrorism? A celebrity rich guy whose chief skills are things like declaring corporate bankruptcy, or the CIA officials and generals with training and experience? Clinton being crap doesn't make Trump good at stuff.

Experience is can not be used. I assume you didn't like Bush b.c he went into Iraq-he was pretty experienced. Obama had very little experience but more than Trump. How did his red line go, how did he do with Russia, Iran, his policies in part gave us ISIS. I agree Trump may not have "exp" but he put one of the best cabinets together and they certainly know how to defeat our enemies. I would also submit that Obama had a great army great generals etc but their hands were tied.

The current pro-Trump people never talk about how highly qualified people in intelligence and military and center-right politics think he's dangerous garbage, do they?


Same was said about Obama by military brass, Obama wanted to be know as a good guy a nice guy but that backfired. our apology tour hurt us. I gladly voted for trump, does that mean I agree with everything he does no, thats the problem with politics, everyone needs to take a step back and see each other position, disagree if they want, but, do so with class. Its a bit much to watch these people riot and break things just b.c things didn't go thier way. And sure if you want me to say I don't agree with all of Trumps statements sure. but you can't argue the guy loves America and wants to protect us, disagree with his methods fine but give him more than 2 weeks and lets see how things go, it can't be worse than what we had.
Stoked
tylercocinas
Post #141
Tuesday February 7, 2017 5:43am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,113
Original post from stoked3
But if Obama was able to do it, how was it constitutional and now that Trump has it is not. Regardless, he did so out of fear of threat to our country-nobody complained. It was also Obama who made the list of the 7 countries, not Trump


So there's definitely established precedent in terms of the fact that the executive branch has very broad authority regarding immigration policy. That has been confirmed by both Congress and SCOTUS, so I've got no issue there.

To me, the constitutionality of the Trump executive order is on shaky ground when you consider the rationale behind it. As I mentioned in the previous post, we have statements made by Trump the candidate, and statements he's made since assuming the office of POTUS that speak to the fact that the underlying purpose of the order was to ban Muslims. The order also carves out special exemptions for minority religions. The whole problem with this is that the government cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.

The whole concept of the 7 countries stems from our visa waiver program. We allow citizens of 38 countries to enter the United States without a visa for 90 days. If however, any citizen of those 38 countries has visited any of the "7 nations," then he or she is not eligible for entry without a visa. So, Obama never denied entry to any of the citizens of those countries as this order does.

Original post from stoked3
I look at our current process whereby people come in and we have no clue whom they are, the FBI director said as much during Obamas time in office. Going back to Bush, they had no clue about the hijackers.


I'm all for creating a catalog of who is entering the US. The executive order doesn't put us on the path to that goal though, because it is possible to begin cataloging entrants without banning every class of immigrant from 7 countries.

Original post from stoked3
We have not achieved the goal of having a good vetting process, there have been many killings in the name of jihad only the media shys away as that would diminish their position. Case in point the military killing in Fort Hood was deemed to be workplace violence give me a break, Their religion teaches them kill if people do not convert. Like it or not that is part of thier religion. SO if you want to come to our country, fine, but you must be vetted. You must love our country, and follow our rules. What an irony it is that all these people are fleeing Muslim countries.


The Ft. Hood shooting was carried out by Nidal Hassan. He was born in Arlington, Virginia, just like I was. The Orlando shooting, was carried out by Omar Mateen, born in New York state. The same can be said for the San Bernadino shooting. I can't refute that Islam played a role in these incidents, but the people I described above were all US citizens, by birth, so they all grew up here. As a matter of fact, no citizen of the 7 countries included in the Executive Order has carried out any terror attack of any kind in the United States. The safety of our country should be our priority, but this executive order is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The administration has made a blatant attempt to ban millions of Muslims, by taking advantage of our desire for safety.

You said that you're all for folks of all colors, religions, etc. coming to the United States, provided they're here to follow our laws. Using safety as guise, the Trump executive order bans millions of people who want to do just that. In a nutshell, that's my issue with it.

To everyone else, I'm sorry for contributing to getting us off the topic of the thread. However, we interact with each other so much that when situations like this occur and intersect with soccer as we saw in this case, I don't think we should shy away from discussion just because we know that we all have different opinions.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #142
Tuesday February 7, 2017 6:24am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,144
stoked, this isn't as important as the debate itself, but you quoted me so sloppily that you wrote inside the text of my quote thus making it look like I said what you said, and it's really hard to understand.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #143
Tuesday February 7, 2017 4:16pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 200
Original post from mmee

stoked, this isn't as important as the debate itself, but you quoted me so sloppily that you wrote inside the text of my quote thus making it look like I said what you said, and it's really hard to understand.


It wasn't as important but yet you found it necessary to comment on it. I will give you I didn't reply as intended next to each of your statements as was my intent-

It shouldn't be hard as hard to understand as you mentioned assuming you know what you wrote, you could just as easily figured out my counter points, it would have been anything in your comments that you didn't write, or the points made after your comments, @tylercocinas easily figured out what I was saying in my reply to him-where I made the same reply mistake.

I am happy to get this forum back to soccer, also happy to continue the discussion on private message. thx
Stoked
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