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hamsamwich
Post #31
Thursday October 6, 2016 4:32am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,468
Of the top of the head with no research, Eddie Howe?

I agree with you @dolcem if what you are saying is that it's a bit of an old boys club for players who did well for big clubs being pushed more than the next guy. But Bob has been coaching for around 25 years including his college days it's not like he's some rookie coach. Whether he breaks through the "Americans don't know shit about soccer" mentality that some have, we will see, and this job will give him exposure.... On the whole, I agree with @2tone about the big time ex players not making good managers, it's basically known as the Ted Williams failure; the guy who knew more about baseball and executing couldn't pass on the required knowledge and/or spot talent well. As good as he was at baseball playing he sucked at coaching it. As for Bob Bradley, he has the things in abundance that Williams didn't have, those key things a coach must have: a clear and consistent message that he is able to communicate effectively, hard work that manifests itself in plenty of preparation making sure his players are able to play to their best of their abilities, being able to recognize talent and put those players on the field in correct spots, and the way Bob commands respect as a man and manager. Those things are all much more important what level he played at.

Rey Regicide
Post #32
Thursday October 6, 2016 12:41pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,768
Original post from 2tone

Arrigo Sachi, Carlos Alberto Perriera, Arsene Wenger, Gerard Houlier, Rafael Benitez. Just to name a few. There have been plenty that only played amateur or lower division leagues.

It's a fallacy to say Bob won't be successfully because he never played professionally. In fact Sir Alex Ferguson has stated in the past how good of a coach Bradley Sr. is, and felt Bob would eventually get a shot with a Premier League team.


Wenger was a midfielder for quite some time.

But for the argument, I guess he was as noteworthy during his time as Bradley was.

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #33
Thursday October 6, 2016 6:37pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 843
I like Bob. He probably had our best USMNT team to date in 2010 and was, probably, an injury free JJ away from the quarters. Just worried about Swansea sitting in 17th and the squad he has to choose from is awful. Staying up would be a success for him this year. And if they drop I think it will be an unfair overreaction.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #34
Thursday October 6, 2016 7:10pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 569
Original post from dolcem

Ham:

Well first of all, during the critical years of Bob's development, there was hardly any soccer on TV at all, and no DVR, either. And let's not forget that watching a game on TV is completely different from seeing one live (on TV you only see a portion of the field and not all of the players, for one). Coach Bob probably never saw a top-flight match live until he was an adult. This is in contrast to his opponents, who were watching the sport all of the time as kids and talking about it with their dads and uncles (who knew a lot about the game).

More importantly, think about all of his opposing managers in the Premier League. Just about every one of them played soccer at the highest levels under the world's best managers. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is of course Mourinho, but let's not forget that he was a translator to the world's top managers, including Sir Bobby Robson, and learned their trade first hand. Then all of these guys retired and became coaches under top-flight managers and climbed the ranks until they, too, were in charge of teams with elite players. For decades (from youth team players to coaches) they learned from the very best.

Bob never played or coached with or against anyone who had ever even been exposed to the game at those levels. He developed as a player and coach in an era where soccer wasn't even played professionally in the US. We were so bad that we couldn't even qualify for the World Cup in CONCACAF (and this was in an era when Central America was being torn apart by US-backed dictators and paramilitaries). His first time seeing the game at a high level would have been in his 50's with the occasional tough CONCACAF match or European friendly. Then a few more games (Confederations and World Cups). After that, some time in Norwar and Ligue 2. That's his entire experience with soccer at the highest levels. It's a fraction of the time that any of his opponents spent there: usually hundreds of matches and thousands of practices.

I can't think of a single top-flight manager in recent history with that kind of background. I don't think any Asian or African managers ever made it to this level. Heck Mexico only has had one (Aguirre). But I sure hope Coach Bob can prove me wrong. And if it's anyone, it's him. His work ethic and professionalism transcends footballing culture. And all they need to do is play gritty bunker ball, anyway, which is precisely Bob's specialty.

You're forgetting about AVB. First job was 8 months at a Portuguese Uni then on to Porto. Where he went undefeated in the league and only lost 4 games in total and won Europa.

Edit: Nvrmind. saw you mention him later in the thread....

kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #35
Thursday October 6, 2016 7:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 569
But you do have Ted Lasso. Also coached at Spurs...quite positive he never played pro..........

dolcem
Post #36
Thursday October 6, 2016 10:43pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Original post from 2tone

Arrigo Sachi, Carlos Alberto Perriera, Arsene Wenger, Gerard Houlier, Rafael Benitez. Just to name a few. There have been plenty that only played amateur or lower division leagues.

It's a fallacy to say Bob won't be successfully because he never played professionally. In fact Sir Alex Ferguson has stated in the past how good of a coach Bradley Sr. is, and felt Bob would eventually get a shot with a Premier League team.


You haven't responded to any of my arguments. All you've come up with is a tiny list of exceptions, and thrown in a fallacious argument (strawman) as well as one little quote from a manager unfamiliar with CONCACAF (and it was along the lines of "I can't believe the US got out of the group stage, Bradley must be a really good manager"...and considering that we were the second best team in the group on paper, that's not necessarily sound logic).

Out of dozens of top flight managers, you can only name five, and only two of them are even coaching anymore. Out of those two, both Wenger played third division soccer and Benitez played second division (and came out of the Real Madrid youth system as well as played at the youth international level). The second division has a lot of players and coaches from the first division (and vice versa), and is part of the same system and culture that regularly produces world class players and managers (in the case of Spain). Wenger is an exception, I'll give you that, but he's a once in a generation genius, and perhaps more importantly, he grew up in France, a culture that actually produces world class players and managers. He grew up watching quality soccer live.

I'd say that this list only confirms my argument.

I'm not saying that Coach Bob can't succeed. You're misrepresenting my argument. What I did say is that never before has someone like Bob ever made it to the big leagues as a manager. And that's not because of some anti-American bias, it's the same reason that no manager from Korea or Japan has ever made it to Europe. Or no coach from the Euro leagues has ever made it to the NBA.

Original post from stone88

Look a Jose Mourinho's glorious senior career. 7 Years 95 appearances with such powerhouses like Rio Ave and Comercio e Industria.

Years Team Apps (Gls)
1980-1982 Rio Ave 16 (2)
1982-1983 Belenenses 16 (2)
1983-1985 Sesimbra 35 (1)
1985-1987 Comércio e Indústria 27 (8)


Did you read my post? Mourinho was Sir Bobby Robson's translator. He literally was at the guy's side every day during training. He learned first hand from one of the best managers of all time. Neither Bob nor anyone around him was exposed to anyone of that level. And at least Mourinho played under professional soccer coaches. They knew a lot more about the game than whoever Bob's Princeton coach was in the 1970's. But again, considering there are literally a small handful of managers that didn't play the game at the highest level, I'd say the odds are against Coach Bob (but as I said in my post, he just might be a success at Swansea).

Original post from hamsamwich

Of the top of the head with no research, Eddie Howe?

I agree with you @dolcem if what you are saying is that it's a bit of an old boys club for players who did well for big clubs being pushed more than the next guy. But Bob has been coaching for around 25 years including his college days it's not like he's some rookie coach. Whether he breaks through the "Americans don't know shit about soccer" mentality that some have, we will see, and this job will give him exposure.... On the whole, I agree with @2tone about the big time ex players not making good managers, it's basically known as the Ted Williams failure; the guy who knew more about baseball and executing couldn't pass on the required knowledge and/or spot talent well. As good as he was at baseball playing he sucked at coaching it. As for Bob Bradley, he has the things in abundance that Williams didn't have, those key things a coach must have: a clear and consistent message that he is able to communicate effectively, hard work that manifests itself in plenty of preparation making sure his players are able to play to their best of their abilities, being able to recognize talent and put those players on the field in correct spots, and the way Bob commands respect as a man and manager. Those things are all much more important what level he played at.


First of all, Eddie Howe played professionally, including games in the Premier League.

I never said that great players necessarily make good managers. But hardly any top-flight managers didn't play the sport professionally. If Coach Bob succeeds at Swansea, he will be a huge exception to the rule. I know this is not the case in American sports, but it is in soccer. And it's not just a European thing, it's the same in Latin America. Heck even all of the new MLS managers were ex-MLS players. It's just how soccer works.
GET A CLUB TEAM
Live490
Texas
Post #37
Thursday October 6, 2016 11:29pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1,112
In other Bradley news, AC Milan want MB. How cool would that be for him to do 2 seasons in Europe before 2018?!? Also Bologna but as a loan and AC permanent.

stone88
Post #38
Friday October 7, 2016 1:12am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,452
Original post from Live490

In other Bradley news, AC Milan want MB. How cool would that be for him to do 2 seasons in Europe before 2018?!? Also Bologna but as a loan and AC permanent.


Bradley has 3 years left on contract with TFC and I bet they value him way above what Italian teams would be willing to pay for him.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #39
Friday October 7, 2016 2:22am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,134
Original post from dolcem

You haven't responded to any of my arguments. All you've come up with is a tiny list of exceptions, and thrown in a fallacious argument (strawman) as well as one little quote from a manager unfamiliar with CONCACAF (and it was along the lines of "I can't believe the US got out of the group stage, Bradley must be a really good manager"...and considering that we were the second best team in the group on paper, that's not necessarily sound logic).

Out of dozens of top flight managers, you can only name five, and only two of them are even coaching anymore. Out of those two, both Wenger played third division soccer and Benitez played second division (and came out of the Real Madrid youth system as well as played at the youth international level). The second division has a lot of players and coaches from the first division (and vice versa), and is part of the same system and culture that regularly produces world class players and managers (in the case of Spain). Wenger is an exception, I'll give you that, but he's a once in a generation genius, and perhaps more importantly, he grew up in France, a culture that actually produces world class players and managers. He grew up watching quality soccer live.

I'd say that this list only confirms my argument.

I'm not saying that Coach Bob can't succeed. You're misrepresenting my argument. What I did say is that never before has someone like Bob ever made it to the big leagues as a manager. And that's not because of some anti-American bias, it's the same reason that no manager from Korea or Japan has ever made it to Europe. Or no coach from the Euro leagues has ever made it to the NBA.

Did you read my post? Mourinho was Sir Bobby Robson's translator. He literally was at the guy's side every day during training. He learned first hand from one of the best managers of all time. Neither Bob nor anyone around him was exposed to anyone of that level. And at least Mourinho played under professional soccer coaches. They knew a lot more about the game than whoever Bob's Princeton coach was in the 1970's. But again, considering there are literally a small handful of managers that didn't play the game at the highest level, I'd say the odds are against Coach Bob (but as I said in my post, he just might be a success at Swansea).

First of all, Eddie Howe played professionally, including games in the Premier League.

I never said that great players necessarily make good managers. But hardly any top-flight managers didn't play the sport professionally. If Coach Bob succeeds at Swansea, he will be a huge exception to the rule. I know this is not the case in American sports, but it is in soccer. And it's not just a European thing, it's the same in Latin America. Heck even all of the new MLS managers were ex-MLS players. It's just how soccer works.


What straw man? You specifically asked what notable managers In world football weren't high
Level players. I provided you names. That pretty much shut down your argument. You never stated they had to be current managers.

To be a top level manager in any sport you do not have to have played at the highest level. That is what I stated. Producing even one name defeats your argument. That in science circles is called disproving a theory. And then I backed it up with more data I.e. Producing more names. You're theory has thus been disproved.

tylercocinas
Post #40
Friday October 7, 2016 3:16am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,100
Original post from stone88

Bradley has 3 years left on contract with TFC and I bet they value him way above what Italian teams would be willing to pay for him.


Truthfully, you could get a non-DP to produce at or around MB's level with Toronto for a fraction of the cost. That being said, even if Toronto dont get their money back for him (they wont) he's still helped turn around a once floundering franchise, so I couldn't fault him if he did decide to head back to Europe.

MSantoine
Post #41
Friday October 7, 2016 1:35pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,706
Original post from 2tone

What straw man? You specifically asked what notable managers In world football weren't high
Level players. I provided you names. That pretty much shut down your argument. You never stated they had to be current managers.

To be a top level manager in any sport you do not have to have played at the highest level. That is what I stated. Producing even one name defeats your argument. That in science circles is called disproving a theory. And then I backed it up with more data I.e. Producing more names. You're theory has thus been disproved.


Bill Bellicek & Greg Popovich approve your message

Rey Regicide
Post #42
Friday October 7, 2016 2:10pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,768
Poppovich and Belicheck are fromthe USA. and in both cases

Parcels

Larry Brown/Mike K (duke, can't spell nor google his name right now)

htey both had incredible resources.

Bradley had a conversatoin with Alex Ferguson.

Rey Regicide
Post #43
Friday October 7, 2016 2:13pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,768
I guess what Dolcem is trying to say, and I agree to an extent is that all those figures came from a culture that could/would support an individual with no reference points.

The equivalent is this

yes Belicheck Greg Popp (who I feel is the greatest basktball coach of al time)

but only if they were born and raised in Madagascar, played professional in Madagascar's league (penguins and all) took Madagascar to the Fiba quarterfinals, got a job in Belgium coaching Basic Fit Brussels, and now is coaching the Knicks.

Rey Regicide
Post #44
Friday October 7, 2016 2:19pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,768
Granted, the Knicks are now being owned by Madagascarian Penguins, but whatever right? An accomplishment is an accomplishment and we have a guy in the PREMIER LEAGUE COACHING!!!

hamsamwich
Post #45
Friday October 7, 2016 5:24pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,468
@dolcem- I'm sorry but that's just an outdated thought process. "This is what we usually do so let's keep on doing that" is what I'm getting from you. Basically people have cited examples from every sport (let's not forget the legendary John Candy in the movie Cool Runnings) that prove you didn't have to be a "top flight player". What of the newer crowd like Warburton at Rangers formerly at Brentford. Guy was some sort of stock broker, but his teams play exciting football with "modern" tactics. As for coach Bob, your point would've had merit if talking about the inexperienced, 1996 version of Bob Bradley twenty years ago. These days he has plenty of managerial experience, which is quite different than what you are using for reference point, playing experience. If nobody knows what they are doing or talking about here in America, why are we commenting on a forum? In a way, your whole, "we do X here in Argentina, so it's great" viewpoint which is a theme of your posts only serves to perpetuate the same exclusionary practice that created an old boys network that allows for ex players in the "top leagues" to have a monopoly over the managerial jobs.

One only has to look at the most popular league, the EPL, for a look at what outside perspectives can do. The most successful of the common era was the Scotsman from Aberdeen, and later the Frenchman from the Japanese league. Currently, the Spanish and Argentine and Portuguese are changing the game there. So currently you have a melting pot in the EPL, a mishmash of the most expensive players and managers. Bob Bradley has joined that pinnacle of success and pay and will be given a chance to disprove what many Europeans (and South Americans) say about the USA, that we suck at soccer basically. But don't tell that to Bradley, as he is changing the tenor of the conversation to the fact that Swansea are a local club who want to stay in the EPL, he is having none of the "first American coach" PR nonsense that we can't get enough of arguing about.

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