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chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #301
Thursday June 23, 2016 2:20am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,518
I know, JK isn't the best coach in world nor is he the worst. He made a handful of savvy decisions that paid off during the tourney. I'm trying to figure his thought process for the Argentina game.

Maybe he did have a more conservative game plan initally in place, but the goal 3 minutes in blew that out of the water. Now we have to chase the game, but we can't go into a high suicidal press and get shredded...so we're stuck in neutral with a timid press and no desire to sit back in a bunker D to keep the score down.

First goal put us in a tactical quandary...

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #302
Thursday June 23, 2016 2:34am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
I should add that I would have 100% respected a "let's sneak out a classic 1-0 win" XI, OR a "let's fucking go for it" XI. I would have fully respected either.

We had neither of those things going on, either tactically or psychologically. Tactically we tried to split the difference in a stupid manner, and psychologically we shit our pants. (technically and athletically, we left quality on the bench and off the roster). This isn't a one-off of a coach trying to squeeze blood out of a stone. JK frequently makes BAFFLING choices that make our odds go from bad to worse. Why do a few of you excuse it as "Well, our odds were already bad, so..... you know, let's just do something ironic or whatever.... psh....."??

Our federation is not structured, and our soccer culture is not passionate or smart enough, to have any sort of political pressure on Gulati and Klinsmann. There is not a no-confidence vote process that I know of. Just because the FMF also sucks, and sucks differently than we do, does not mean shit.

As for the average quality of our best 11 or 15 or 40 players rising in the last 20 years, you mentioned some names. I'll mention more names, and all from the 2002 WC squad (from ostensibly our best *squad* ever) and leave the for the jury to decide if we are better now, player for player:

Frankie Hejduk (played)
Gregg Berhalter (played)
Pablo Mastroeni (played)
Clint Mathis (played)
Jeff Agoos (played)
Cobi Jones (played)
Josh Wolff (played)
Carlos Llamosa (played)
Tony Meola
Tony Sanneh (played)

These are mediocre players on a World Cup level (granted, some of them very smart and most of them very professional in their nature). They gave us a great squad, partly because of their preparation and belief, which has a lot to do with coaching.

But you're saying our level hasn't risen? That we don't have more well-rounded players now? Do you ever re-read what you've written?

*****

I know you all like to laugh about adms and Rain etc , but they can read the writing on the wall, even if they just say/believe funny things sometimes. But they have more logic than JK diehards do.
USAGunner, I'm thrilled to see, has at least partly changed his mind, which is something almost no one on internet boards can do because everyone's too proud, usually. Good man, Gunner.

I'm returning to radio silence again starting now, because it's just 100% swear words and name-calling from me after this, and this isn't a life-or-death matter, obviously.

Have fun, guys. Be well.

Live490
Texas
Post #303
Thursday June 23, 2016 2:44am

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1,174
I appreciate your posts mmee. They are full of insight and to me, they make sense.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #304
Thursday June 23, 2016 2:46am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
I realize that I said dolcem when some of that was addressed at Dunlopp. My bad.

I'd really love to know if the pro-JK people are also dismissing the TSS instant reaction podcast as readily as they're dismissing the Twitter links I posted.....?

Because if they refuse to listen to the pre-Argentina TSS episode, and the instant reaction one, I think we're dealing with trolls or just self-satisfied retards.

kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #305
Thursday June 23, 2016 3:39am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from mmee

I realize that I said dolcem when some of that was addressed at Dunlopp. My bad.

I'd really love to know if the pro-JK people are also dismissing the TSS instant reaction podcast as readily as they're dismissing the Twitter links I posted.....?

Because if they refuse to listen to the pre-Argentina TSS episode, and the instant reaction one, I think we're dealing with trolls or just self-satisfied retards.

I have supported JK from the begining and have tried to see his rationale but more and more I'm having to admit that it seems like he, like people have said in the past, lacks the tactical wherewithal to cut it sometimes. That said I like TSS guys and think they have been spot on lately.

KikitfaR
Post #306
Thursday June 23, 2016 3:55am

Joined Jun 2016
Total Posts: 5
Sorry I've been reading some of these posts and I just have to weigh in... It seems fairly simple, wether you agree with FIFA or not, Venzuela is ranked #77 and had 10 shots (4) on goal... US #31 0 shots (0) on goal...now I'm no soccer guru, but that stat says everything.

If we have good players then where is the offense?.... If we have 20 good players then where is the bench? A few of you seem to think its no ones fault, but if our country is moving forward, 3 suspensions wouldn't keep us from getting 1 shot off, no???

Here's another thing, who's this that decided you leave your better, technical, players on the bench? The idea that if you started Pulisic and Nagbe you'd have no one to look to (on the bench) in a tight game, not only negates the argument of a better team, but is also a ridiculous notion. Teams that win play their best players, they don't leave them on the bench cause they hope they'll be close enough in the 2nd half, to throw them in and hope they effect the game.

I'm not saying that Pulisic and Nagbe are the best players on the team, but looking at the roster, who else can play with confidence on the ball in Mid??? Never mind, yes... They've got to be the best Mids we have....

Now I certainly am not upset that we got beat by a very good Argentina, but the manner in which we played was terrible. I mean, I can put a team together that won't get a shot off and gets played off the field, these guys are supposed to be pros (including JK) there's no excuse for that performance.

kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #307
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:03am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from KikitfaR

Now I certainly am not upset that we got beat by a very good Argentina, but the manner in which we played was terrible. I mean, I can put a team together that won't get a shot off and gets played off the field, these guys are supposed to be pros (including JK) there's no excuse for that performance.

+1

dunlopp9987
Post #308
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:07am

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,642
Original post from kicksNgiggles10

I have supported JK from the begining and have tried to see his rationale but more and more I'm having to admit that it seems like he, like people have said in the past, lacks the tactical wherewithal to cut it sometimes. That said I like TSS guys and think they have been spot on lately.


Oh anyone who thinks Jurgen is a great tactical coach is bonkers. Every now and again he'll make a decision that pays off, but poor tactical decisions are more the norm. The biggest problem I have is the level of vitriol that gets thrown this guy's way. He certainly doesn't do himself any favors, as he can be quite arrogant and sometimes nonchalant. But the blasé reactions he receives when we play well versus the spewing-hatred-end-of-the-world reactions he receives when we play poorly is what bothers me the most.

I would be interested to see what a different manager could do with this crop of players, though. But I also believe that the current crop we have is not very talented. In a few years it will be, but all of our promising players are young and just breaking into leagues overseas. And as much shit as Jurgen has received about how he is anti-MLS, he plays a lot of them. Look at last night's game. And last night's game was proof that MLS players (for the most part) shouldn't be starting. The future of this team are the players who are in Europe, or will be over there in a few years (Morris, fingers crossed for Zardes, etc.)
COYB!!
snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #309
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:29am

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 893
Idk what some of you guys expect with a roster littered with MLS players playing against the best player in the world and that squad. Yeah 4-0 is bad and there isn't an excuse but to think a different coach would have done better is pure speculation.

So people didn't like Nagbe and Puli on the bench. Well Puli was on the pitch for half the match and we conceded 2. Nagbe for 1. We still had no shots. So let's not pretend like starting them would have made a difference.

No shame in losing in the Semis of Copa America against that team. I am shocked on how slow JK includes younger/ newer players into the squad. I get you just don't throw young or new guys into starting roles, but I feel like we've seen a lot less inclusion of new/ young talent. I believe 10 players in his starting 11 last night were on his WC squad. I hope we get to see some fresh faces as we finally phase out the Wondos/ Beckermans/ Zusis.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #310
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:30am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from dunlopp9987

Oh anyone who thinks Jurgen is a great tactical coach is bonkers. Every now and again he'll make a decision that pays off, but poor tactical decisions are more the norm. The biggest problem I have is the level of vitriol that gets thrown this guy's way. He certainly doesn't do himself any favors, as he can be quite arrogant and sometimes nonchalant. But the blasé reactions he receives when we play well versus the spewing-hatred-end-of-the-world reactions he receives when we play poorly is what bothers me the most.

I would be interested to see what a different manager could do with this crop of players, though. But I also believe that the current crop we have is not very talented. In a few years it will be, but all of our promising players are young and just breaking into leagues overseas. And as much shit as Jurgen has received about how he is anti-MLS, he plays a lot of them. Look at last night's game. And last night's game was proof that MLS players (for the most part) shouldn't be starting. The future of this team are the players who are in Europe, or will be over there in a few years (Morris, fingers crossed for Zardes, etc.)

I feel ya.

You think anyone is available now and wants the job that would be any better than JK?

coverby
Post #311
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:40am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 501
Original post from kicksNgiggles10

I have supported JK from the begining and have tried to see his rationale but more and more I'm having to admit that it seems like he, like people have said in the past, lacks the tactical wherewithal to cut it sometimes. That said I like TSS guys and think they have been spot on lately.


They're usually pretty spot on with analysis and tactics especially in other instances they tend to take many looks at games and situations. I fear they will become just like the rest of the US soccer media which is where they seem to be headed.

Where they are terrible is interpreting the LotG. Taylor especially.

But I know everyone especially the media is picking apart JK (for good reason) but there's a lot that falls on the players themselves.

Cowherd says its best in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukU55dHYAT0

dfw_fan
DfW
Post #312
Thursday June 23, 2016 4:54am

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 999
Original post from coverby

They're usually pretty spot on with analysis and tactics especially in other instances they tend to take many looks at games and situations. I fear they will become just like the rest of the US soccer media which is where they seem to be headed.

Where they are terrible is interpreting the LotG. Taylor especially.

But I know everyone especially the media is picking apart JK (for good reason) but there's a lot that falls on the players themselves.

Cowherd says its best in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukU55dHYAT0


Spot on, few people get it. Most the players, especially, who are in the MLS are coddled by our press like they are 5 year old kids, who's feelings would be hurt.

skangles
DC
Post #313
Thursday June 23, 2016 5:07am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,446
Original post from coverby

They're usually pretty spot on with analysis and tactics especially in other instances they tend to take many looks at games and situations. I fear they will become just like the rest of the US soccer media which is where they seem to be headed.

Where they are terrible is interpreting the LotG. Taylor especially.

But I know everyone especially the media is picking apart JK (for good reason) but there's a lot that falls on the players themselves.

Cowherd says its best in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukU55dHYAT0


I couldn't disagree more about TSS becoming like the rest of US soccer media. I have no idea where you're coming from with that comment.

They've been doing immediate reactions to the US games for this tournament only and then giving a detailed analysis the next day but they don't want to re-watch that game and I don't blame them. It was nauseating enough just catching a few minutes of the replay while the Chile vs Colombia was on weather delay.

coverby
Post #314
Thursday June 23, 2016 6:01am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 501
Original post from skangles

I couldn't disagree more about TSS becoming like the rest of US soccer media. I have no idea where you're coming from with that comment.

They've been doing immediate reactions to the US games for this tournament only and then giving a detailed analysis the next day but they don't want to re-watch that game and I don't blame them. It was nauseating enough just catching a few minutes of the replay while the Chile vs Colombia was on weather delay.


It comes from the bottom of my comment. I just listened to their instant reaction, and it's exactly like what Cowherd talks about. Nothing is the players fault it's only the tactics that JK gave them. There were US players not marking anyone on the first goal and no one at least shadowing Messi. How do we know automatically that is Klinsmann's fault?

They also re-watched the goals by their own admission and broke them down. Including their comment about the signs being too close to the field and Lavezzi "trying" to keep the ball in play though he is too far out to even keep it in. TSS have some very valid concerns it just shouldn't be taken as gospel.

blaise213
Post #315
Thursday June 23, 2016 6:35am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,994
Original post from USAGunner

SIGH.
I was so upset last night. Especially when I saw the lineup. As soon as I saw it I texted my friends and said we were going to get smoked. With that lineup JK effectively threw out any chance we had of winning (which was small in the first place).

Messi said in the run up that our speed can cause them problems. Everyone knew it, I said it multiple times on here, that we need to use the speed advantage and open up space for Dempsey. Apparently everyone saw it except JK. I was even more upset when I saw their players start to cramp at the end. This was in a game they dominated and relatively speaking expended very little energy.

We played right into their hands and didn't capitalize on the 2 things that would have worked in our favor. SPEED and PHYSICAL EXHAUSTION by Argentina.

Instead of going with fast guys that are technically sound, we went with old guys that aren't. Freaking GENIUS. No Pulisic or Nagbe or Kitchen wouldn't have guaranteed a different result. It's the best team in the world. But they gave us a CHANCE at least. I don't care about them not looking great when they did come in. And truthfully Pulisic when he came in offered the only dangerous moments for us. Amazingly the only times we looked even remotely dangerous was by using...wait for it...OUR SPEED. With runs by Yedlin, Zardes, and Pulisic. So yes Pulisic would have been a LOT better than Wondo. A LOT.

Playing Beckerman ended up moving Bradley up. We have seen it 2-3x this summer. Bradley as a DM plays well (he still has stupid turnovers on occasion, but he plays well on the defensive end and being deep allows him to hit his long outlet passes which he excels at).

2 things broke our back. Beckerman in no man's land on the first goal ending up with a wide open Lavezzi in the box. BUT after that goal made it 1-0 we still recovered and were playing reasonably well. Until Wondo. He has a Zardes level first touch that goes right to Argentina on a break away and he fouls the Argentinian right outside the box, giving Messi a free kick in his money range. I knew that free kick was going to be a goal as soon as Messi lined up. After that we were finished. We had nothing in attack particularly from our midfielders.

Beckerman and Wondolowski should have seen their last games for the USMNT. they aren't good enough anymore. I don't care how well they play in MLS, they aren't good at this level anymore (was Wondolowski ever good at this level?).

Bradley is not a #8 or #10 at the international level. He is a #6 pure and simple on this level. That is clear. Debate over. He isn't a great #6, but he is one that works well for us and with Brooks/Cameron. Good cohesion there.

Yedlin, Brooks, Cameron, and FabJo are as good of a back 4 as there is in this tournament. Despite the 4-0 result these guys played very well tonight. Yes Brooks lost his guy on the 3rd goal, but excuse me if I pardon him for 1 mistake all summer. Cameron was good and Yedlin was great defending tonight. FabJo was his normal steady self.
If we had been able to get any kind of attack and not have stupid turnovers in awful positions based off of how these 4 played we would be looking at like 1-0 scoreline.

Dempsey was non-existent tonight. Which I knew he would be once I saw Wondo in the lineup. Just not a good pairing and Wondo isn't going to do the things Dempsey needs in order to succeed. Of course Bradley playing in an advanced role rarely has ever worked with Dempsey there either.

So we get everyone back for 3rd place. Please just stick to the 4-3-3 with Bedoya and Jones and Woods in the lineup and Bradley as the DM. Then for the subs bring on Pulisic, Nagbe, or Birnbaum/Besler if we need defense. Please forget Wondo, and Beckerman exist.


Spot on analysis ! I still was confused on the birnbaum inclusion? Like why did he come in?

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