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dolcem
Post #271
Wednesday June 22, 2016 2:20pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Oh man. We made it to the semi-finals of the Copa America, played one of the top three teams in the world with three of our starters missing (and this team is seriously in between generations), and lose and now we have to fire the manager. The record winning percentage, the fantastic world cup, the fact that we had moments last cycle when we played more attractively than we ever have, none of that matters. Every time there is a dip in form, fire the manager. Because he uses a different lineup than the one I use when playing FIFA. Thank god the USSF isn't run like the FMF.
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kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #272
Wednesday June 22, 2016 2:40pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from TheTruth

I couldn't imagine saying this a year ago, but I'm ready to start seeing other people tried out over Bradley. What the fuck happened to him? He just started sucking a year or so ago and he's never stopped since.

I can......because I did. Oh well, maybe now that other people besides me are noticing and it will resonate. He's an average player at this point. So excited he has to sit the next WCQ.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #273
Wednesday June 22, 2016 3:25pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
SIGH.
I was so upset last night. Especially when I saw the lineup. As soon as I saw it I texted my friends and said we were going to get smoked. With that lineup JK effectively threw out any chance we had of winning (which was small in the first place).

Messi said in the run up that our speed can cause them problems. Everyone knew it, I said it multiple times on here, that we need to use the speed advantage and open up space for Dempsey. Apparently everyone saw it except JK. I was even more upset when I saw their players start to cramp at the end. This was in a game they dominated and relatively speaking expended very little energy.

We played right into their hands and didn't capitalize on the 2 things that would have worked in our favor. SPEED and PHYSICAL EXHAUSTION by Argentina.

Instead of going with fast guys that are technically sound, we went with old guys that aren't. Freaking GENIUS. No Pulisic or Nagbe or Kitchen wouldn't have guaranteed a different result. It's the best team in the world. But they gave us a CHANCE at least. I don't care about them not looking great when they did come in. And truthfully Pulisic when he came in offered the only dangerous moments for us. Amazingly the only times we looked even remotely dangerous was by using...wait for it...OUR SPEED. With runs by Yedlin, Zardes, and Pulisic. So yes Pulisic would have been a LOT better than Wondo. A LOT.

Playing Beckerman ended up moving Bradley up. We have seen it 2-3x this summer. Bradley as a DM plays well (he still has stupid turnovers on occasion, but he plays well on the defensive end and being deep allows him to hit his long outlet passes which he excels at).

2 things broke our back. Beckerman in no man's land on the first goal ending up with a wide open Lavezzi in the box. BUT after that goal made it 1-0 we still recovered and were playing reasonably well. Until Wondo. He has a Zardes level first touch that goes right to Argentina on a break away and he fouls the Argentinian right outside the box, giving Messi a free kick in his money range. I knew that free kick was going to be a goal as soon as Messi lined up. After that we were finished. We had nothing in attack particularly from our midfielders.

Beckerman and Wondolowski should have seen their last games for the USMNT. they aren't good enough anymore. I don't care how well they play in MLS, they aren't good at this level anymore (was Wondolowski ever good at this level?).

Bradley is not a #8 or #10 at the international level. He is a #6 pure and simple on this level. That is clear. Debate over. He isn't a great #6, but he is one that works well for us and with Brooks/Cameron. Good cohesion there.

Yedlin, Brooks, Cameron, and FabJo are as good of a back 4 as there is in this tournament. Despite the 4-0 result these guys played very well tonight. Yes Brooks lost his guy on the 3rd goal, but excuse me if I pardon him for 1 mistake all summer. Cameron was good and Yedlin was great defending tonight. FabJo was his normal steady self.
If we had been able to get any kind of attack and not have stupid turnovers in awful positions based off of how these 4 played we would be looking at like 1-0 scoreline.

Dempsey was non-existent tonight. Which I knew he would be once I saw Wondo in the lineup. Just not a good pairing and Wondo isn't going to do the things Dempsey needs in order to succeed. Of course Bradley playing in an advanced role rarely has ever worked with Dempsey there either.

So we get everyone back for 3rd place. Please just stick to the 4-3-3 with Bedoya and Jones and Woods in the lineup and Bradley as the DM. Then for the subs bring on Pulisic, Nagbe, or Birnbaum/Besler if we need defense. Please forget Wondo, and Beckerman exist.
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Live490
Texas
Post #274
Wednesday June 22, 2016 3:42pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1,174
Why when we all see it, Klinsmann doesnt and he tries his stupid plan and fails, and still has people on here defending him? After he did it wrong. Way wrong. That's what i dont get. What does he have to do to make ppl realize we will not work with him? You said it USA Gunner. You're right ^. Wondo? Was that like i make the calls and im sticking to it. Fuck nagbe, he gets no more than 15 min when we are down so he cant make a difference and prove me right.

dolcem
Post #275
Wednesday June 22, 2016 3:52pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Dear God...when will you people stop talking about lineups? Our opinions in regards to lineups are uninformed, unimportant, irrelevant and form little basis for evaluating the performance of a manager.

Argentina desperately wants to win something with this generation. They were denied at the brink two times in a row of trophies and they are as focused as ever. They were going to rip us to shreds regardless, and without three starters, 4-0 isn't really all that bad of a result. They've brushed aside everyone else with ease.

I don't understand how you people can have such ridiculous expectations.
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Know Nothing
Post #276
Wednesday June 22, 2016 3:55pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,702
My post mortem on last night...everyone was scared of Argentina.

Starting with JK with his half baked lineup. He wanted to go for it but was too scared of a slaughter to play the proper people. So we had a formation to be defensive and offensive but the wrong personnel manning the positions. Hindsight being 20/20, playing a 4-2-4 would have just been as effective given the amount of long balls we played. At the very least it would have kept their backs deeper.

The players...too few fouls for starters...we were too nice. Too many long balls and speculative balls with no runners. Yes we really missed Bobby Woods last night. Can't fault the defense for doing it though because they were under constant pressure.

For those people wanting JK fired...fair enough. His indecision as to how to play Argentina had as much to do with last night as anything. But a proper manager would have bunkered the defense to try and play to our strengths.

dolcem
Post #277
Wednesday June 22, 2016 4:05pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from Know Nothing

My post mortem on last night...everyone was scared of Argentina.

Starting with JK with his half baked lineup. He wanted to go for it but was too scared of a slaughter to play the proper people. So we had a formation to be defensive and offensive but the wrong personnel manning the positions. Hindsight being 20/20, playing a 4-2-4 would have just been as effective given the amount of long balls we played. At the very least it would have kept their backs deeper.

The players...too few fouls for starters...we were too nice. Too many long balls and speculative balls with no runners. Yes we really missed Bobby Woods last night. Can't fault the defense for doing it though because they were under constant pressure.

For those people wanting JK fired...fair enough. His indecision as to how to play Argentina had as much to do with last night as anything. But a proper manager would have bunkered the defense to try and play to our strengths.


Who are the "proper" people that should have been played? Who is a "proper" manager? Sigi Schmid? Last I checked, Guardiola wasn't interested. And how do you know whether or not we "played to our strengths?" Were you in the locker room? Do you know what the game plan was? For all you know, Klinsmann might have had the same exact game plan that you wanted and it just didn't work because the team we played is on a different planet than us. We do not have a single player that would be anywhere near sniffing their roster.
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MSantoine
Post #278
Wednesday June 22, 2016 4:27pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
@dolcem

While I agree with most of what you are saying here I will point out something that sciaretta pointed out in one of his ASN columns.

How can Jurgen spend 3-4 days saying how US cant be scared of Argentina. How we cant cry we're the underdog anymore. How we need to play our game and attack their fullbacks.

And then trot out that lineup. I mean thats about as defensive, scared, underdog, over respecting Argentina as you can get. How can we expect the players to be aggressive and play an attacking style of soccer when the coach turtles at the first sign of danger. All I know is if Im a player and a journalist asks me anything about giving too much respect to an opponent, or playing too defensive, Im throwing Jurgen under the bus as he completely went against everything he said to ESPN with that lineup/tactics

kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #279
Wednesday June 22, 2016 4:41pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from USAGunner

So we get everyone back for 3rd place. Please just stick to the 4-3-3 with Bedoya and Jones and Woods in the lineup and Bradley as the DM. Then for the subs bring on Pulisic, Nagbe, or Birnbaum/Besler if we need defense. Please forget Wondo, and Beckerman exist.

Jones is still out fyi

kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #280
Wednesday June 22, 2016 4:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
Original post from skangles

I have TSS in my earbuds at the moment. It's one of their best shows yet.

This was good. I could care less about "not stepping on toes" or "respecting" them too much. I think that had about 10% to do with the outcome. The other 90%? Tactics...or lack thereof. I encourage everyone to take 25 mins to listen to this today. I thought they were pretty spot on!

Know Nothing
Post #281
Wednesday June 22, 2016 4:55pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,702
Original post from dolcem

Who are the "proper" people that should have been played? Who is a "proper" manager? Sigi Schmid? Last I checked, Guardiola wasn't interested. And how do you know whether or not we "played to our strengths?" Were you in the locker room? Do you know what the game plan was? For all you know, Klinsmann might have had the same exact game plan that you wanted and it just didn't work because the team we played is on a different planet than us. We do not have a single player that would be anywhere near sniffing their roster.


We aren't on Argentina's level...I get that. Do I know what the game plan was...obviously not. But it appeared that if there was a game plan, the players he had out there were ill-equipped to handle it.

Watching the tournament our "strengths" are sound defense and counter attack. Despite winning our group, the only team we dominated was a Costa Rica team that got demoralized after the penalty call.

Part of the defense was Bradley at DM. Despite giving the ball away a lot more than he usually does, he worked well with Cameron and Brooks all tournament.

Changing that out for Beckerman changes the dynamic with Brooks and Cameron. Beckerman has slowed and, IMO, was not the right option to play against a team that moves as well as Argentina.

What was the proper team? To beat Argentina I don't think we could make one out of the players available to us. But to give them a game, I would have tried

Guzan
Yeds, Birnbaum, Brooks, FJ
Cam, MB
Zardes, Nagbe, Pulisic
Dempsey

When I said proper manager I meant any manager with over 200 matches to his name...except Pep Guardiola. I don't see why he is seen with such reverence. He has only worked with great talents and with teams guaranteed top 2 finishes. I will reserve judgement on Pep until the end of this upcoming EPL season.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #282
Wednesday June 22, 2016 5:11pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Dolcem, while normally I agree with you about lineups. I just can't get it here, especially with regards to Wondolowski.
There is no defending that. And no one has said that him not playing would have changed the eventual outcome. We lose pretty much no matter who is in the lineup. We all get that. But we could look a lot better and actually go after them.

Sorry Most of us said it on here before the match. Messi Said. JK himself said it. We need to attack them and be aggressive. That attack had to be quick attacks and using speed. We all saw it, JK saw it and SAID it.

So with that gameplan in mind, there is NO reason Wondowlowski should be on the field. He's not fast. He's a poacher. You have Wondo on the field when you are going to have lots of build up and attack, and hope that he can get a rebound or a trash ball in the middle of the box and poke it home (which he routinely screws up anyways...but that's another topic). He is the OPPOSITE of what JK, Messi, and everyone here said we needed.

There is no defending that pick and putting him in the lineup. NONE. It was a HORRIBLE choice.

You know what? JK agrees that it was a horrible choice. That's why he subbed him off at the half and brought on Pulisic. He saw his mistake (at least he did) and made the change (honestly should have done it earlier).

So normally, sure you don't know what the gameplan is, normally it makes little sense to question the lineups. But there is a rare occasion where the choice is so stupid, so brain-dead that you have to question it and call it what it is. Especially when the managers actions say he knows he made a mistake too.
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dolcem
Post #283
Wednesday June 22, 2016 5:32pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from MSantoine

@dolcem

While I agree with most of what you are saying here I will point out something that sciaretta pointed out in one of his ASN columns.

How can Jurgen spend 3-4 days saying how US cant be scared of Argentina. How we cant cry we're the underdog anymore. How we need to play our game and attack their fullbacks.

And then trot out that lineup. I mean thats about as defensive, scared, underdog, over respecting Argentina as you can get. How can we expect the players to be aggressive and play an attacking style of soccer when the coach turtles at the first sign of danger. All I know is if Im a player and a journalist asks me anything about giving too much respect to an opponent, or playing too defensive, Im throwing Jurgen under the bus as he completely went against everything he said to ESPN with that lineup/tactics


I can't read Sciaretta because he's so cringeworthy.

What is Jurgen supposed to say? That we don't deserve to win?

You guys need to stop with the lineup nonsense. Seriously. It's out of control. What is "scared" about this lineup? We have a #6, a #8, a striker/winger playing on one wing, the MLS' best winger playing on the other, and two strikers (including probably the best American MLS striker ever). Klinsmann had his hands tied with those suspensions, and he correctly left Pulisic and Nagbe on the bench so that we'd have someone to turn to when we were losing. Picking the lineup is about 10% of the job. You could have a "defensive" lineup and play offensively, and vice versa. We don't know what Jurgen's game plan was because we weren't in the locker room. Neither was Sciaretta. For all we know, JK told the boys to go out and attack but they couldn't succeed because Argentina is on a different planet from us, and Michael Bradley sucked.

We won the group and made the semi-finals. This tournament was a success period. But no one here will enjoy that because they're so caught up in their own opinions on the manager and their FIFA lineups (as if anyone cares). After we beat Ecuador in the quarterfinals, there was not ONE post about it. Not one person posted anything celebratory, even though we had just exceeded our goal and redeemed ourselves after our performance in '07. Not one person. A lot of people here aren't even rooting for the USNT because they care more about being right on the Yanks Abroad forum.

Original post from kicksNgiggles10

This was good. I could care less about "not stepping on toes" or "respecting" them too much. I think that had about 10% to do with the outcome. The other 90%? Tactics...or lack thereof. I encourage everyone to take 25 mins to listen to this today. I thought they were pretty spot on!


So you know what the tactics were? You were in the locker room? We got out asses handed to us by the second or third best team in the world. I don't think we can make any assumptions about tactics.

Original post from Know Nothing

We aren't on Argentina's level...I get that. Do I know what the game plan was...obviously not. But it appeared that if there was a game plan, the players he had out there were ill-equipped to handle it.

Watching the tournament our "strengths" are sound defense and counter attack. Despite winning our group, the only team we dominated was a Costa Rica team that got demoralized after the penalty call.

Part of the defense was Bradley at DM. Despite giving the ball away a lot more than he usually does, he worked well with Cameron and Brooks all tournament.

Changing that out for Beckerman changes the dynamic with Brooks and Cameron. Beckerman has slowed and, IMO, was not the right option to play against a team that moves as well as Argentina.

What was the proper team? To beat Argentina I don't think we could make one out of the players available to us. But to give them a game, I would have tried

Guzan
Yeds, Birnbaum, Brooks, FJ
Cam, MB
Zardes, Nagbe, Pulisic
Dempsey

When I said proper manager I meant any manager with over 200 matches to his name...except Pep Guardiola. I don't see why he is seen with such reverence. He has only worked with great talents and with teams guaranteed top 2 finishes. I will reserve judgement on Pep until the end of this upcoming EPL season.


But your opinions on lineups are completely irrelevant. You don't know how the team would play with your lineup, and the lineup itself is only about 5-10% of the battle. We could play very poorly with that lineup, or we could play very well, depending on tactics, the players, the manager's plan, the opposition, etc. I could discuss the obvious problems with your lineup (breaking up the Cameron Brooks combo, and there's no evidence Cameron would slow as less down than Beckerman, who has played very well in big games and was not one of our worst players last night), but it's a completely fruitless discussion.

For how many matches had Klopp been in charge when he started winning titles of Dortmund? Tuchel had had 170ish games under his belt before this season, so he wasn't a proper manager? I guess Dortmund made a mistake? Is Sigi Schmid better than him because he's had more games under his belt?

Klinsmann has managed top teams and played all over the world under some of the best managers. He has a better CV and more experience than anyone living in the US by far, and better than any mercenary we might be able to get.

Original post from USAGunner

Dolcem, while normally I agree with you about lineups. I just can't get it here, especially with regards to Wondolowski.
There is no defending that. And no one has said that him not playing would have changed the eventual outcome. We lose pretty much no matter who is in the lineup. We all get that. But we could look a lot better and actually go after them.

Sorry Most of us said it on here before the match. Messi Said. JK himself said it. We need to attack them and be aggressive. That attack had to be quick attacks and using speed. We all saw it, JK saw it and SAID it.

So with that gameplan in mind, there is NO reason Wondowlowski should be on the field. He's not fast. He's a poacher. You have Wondo on the field when you are going to have lots of build up and attack, and hope that he can get a rebound or a trash ball in the middle of the box and poke it home (which he routinely screws up anyways...but that's another topic). He is the OPPOSITE of what JK, Messi, and everyone here said we needed.

There is no defending that pick and putting him in the lineup. NONE. It was a HORRIBLE choice.

You know what? JK agrees that it was a horrible choice. That's why he subbed him off at the half and brought on Pulisic. He saw his mistake (at least he did) and made the change (honestly should have done it earlier).

So normally, sure you don't know what the gameplan is, normally it makes little sense to question the lineups. But there is a rare occasion where the choice is so stupid, so brain-dead that you have to question it and call it what it is. Especially when the managers actions say he knows he made a mistake too.


We were missing Wood. Everyone here was complaining about how bad Dempsey is as a lone striker. Wondo is the best American MLS striker of all time and has a great attitude. Would I have played him? No. But Klinsmann's hands were pretty well tied with the suspensions, and the tournament as a whole was a success. If the only criticism we have is that he started one player that he maybe shouldn't have (something that happens all of the time in soccer...Argentina didn't put its best players on the field, either), than I'd say we should all calm the fuck down.
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kicksNgiggles10
Birmingham
Post #284
Wednesday June 22, 2016 6:05pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 572
@dolcem You're right. If the gameplan (tactics) were to half ass press leaving ourselves exposed on occasion and half ass defend while maintaining no possession or stringing together more than an average of 2 passes then we nailed it! Way to go guys! I would go as far to say that the tactics, in JK's mind, didn't change with the lineup. I think he thought we would press exactly the way we have attempted to the whole tourney. Even he himself said Wondo was a straight sub for Wood. Which is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. No way that Mid last night can press the same way without Jones and Bedoya. IMO that's why we saw what Alexi pointed out....half defend, counter and half press. Pick one! I get the impression, based on comments made by JK that he intended to try and press. But when that line up was out there, that I don't really think is best suited to press, they lost the gameplan and had to defend way more than they expected. And then you saw what you saw. No we don't know what a different line-up would have brought but hindsight is 20/20 no? That was not a starting XI that was built to possess, press and attack. Yet I am led to believe that was what we wanted to do bc that's what he said. Regardless of how good Argentina is (excellent), I think most here agree that whatever the tactics were, they were utterly shit. Or at least executed poorly, if at all. To me no one looked like they had a clue what was going on. Maybe Zardes. I wasn't expecting a win, but I was at least expecting something that looked like soccer.

Live490
Texas
Post #285
Wednesday June 22, 2016 6:12pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1,174
He was right to leave Nagbe and Pulisic on the bench for if we were losing? That's it. That's what is wrong. That mentality. Of course we would be losing but why not take a different approach. Why not have one start and the other off the bench? Already going in losing. That's a damn shame and un American. No matter how small of a chance we have, there is a chance. As minimal as it is. Thinking like that already is wrong. What message do you give to your players? To the ppl? To the rivals?

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