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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #1
Tuesday May 31, 2016 8:57pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Here is the breakdown for those who made the 23 man rosters for Copa and Euro this summer, based off of where they play their Club ball (what system)

England - 180
Germany - 76
Italy - 68
Spain - 66
France - 39
USA - 39
Turkey - 39
Mexico - 36
Russia -29
Ukraine - 23
Portugal - 22
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Know Nothing
Post #2
Tuesday May 31, 2016 9:34pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from USAGunner

Here is the breakdown for those who made the 23 man rosters for Copa and Euro this summer, based off of where they play their Club ball (what system)

England - 180
Germany - 76
Italy - 68
Spain - 66
France - 39
USA - 39
Turkey - 39
Mexico - 36
Russia -29
Ukraine - 23
Portugal - 22


England has more than Italy, Spain, and France combined...fascinating

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #3
Tuesday May 31, 2016 9:47pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
A lot of that has to do with teams like Northern Ireland, Ireland, and Wales (team that normally wouldn't qualify) that have guys primarily playing in England.
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dolcem
Post #4
Tuesday May 31, 2016 10:58pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,802
Yeah but this doesn't take into consideration the Latin American players, who mostly play in La Liga.

The EPL has great imports, but the homegrown players and managers are just on a level below their Spanish and German counterparts. You can't just buy success, which is why barring an extreme amount of luck, no English team ever gets far in continental competitions. For the same reason, we can't just hope that in sprinkling on a few quality DP's and raising the salary cap, the MLS will be able to compete with better leagues.

Also, by some freak accident, the British teams mentioned above qualified, which also skews the scale a bit.
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cleancutimage
Post #5
Wednesday June 1, 2016 12:36am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,231
I was looking at the Euro 2016 teams and a lot of garbage teams in this tournament because of the expansion yet a lot of quality teams missed out. I see JK's opinion on Copa being the better tournament. I know it is impossible but I think the US would do very well in Euro 2016 if they were placed in the right group. I think we have as much or more quality than half of the teams in this tournament (Romania, Albania, Northern Ireland, Iceland, Hungary, Czech Republic(WC 2006 homers would say different) just to name a few.

MSantoine
Post #6
Wednesday June 1, 2016 11:34am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from dolcem

Yeah but this doesn't take into consideration the Latin American players, who mostly play in La Liga.

The EPL has great imports, but the homegrown players and managers are just on a level below their Spanish and German counterparts. You can't just buy success, which is why barring an extreme amount of luck, no English team ever gets far in continental competitions. For the same reason, we can't just hope that in sprinkling on a few quality DP's and raising the salary cap, the MLS will be able to compete with better leagues.

Also, by some freak accident, the British teams mentioned above qualified, which also skews the scale a bit.


The numbers show the exact arguement that some have been trying to make. La Liga has the best high end quality, best stars, but the EPL depth is tops.

18 of 24 Euro teams have someone playing in Englang. Only 12 of 24 have someone playing in La Liga. 11 of 16 Copa teams have someone in EPL. Only 9 in La Liga.

There just isnt the money outside of Barca, Real, & Athletico, (minus the 1-2stars at a time for teams like Sevilla, & Valencia) for players who are exceptional but not world class to go to. You get much more money playing at Stoke City or Southampton then you do playing for Espanyol or Malaga

Know Nothing
Post #7
Wednesday June 1, 2016 3:23pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from dolcem

Also, by some freak accident, the British teams mentioned above qualified, which also skews the scale a bit.


FACEPALM They went through the same qualification process...no freak accident

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #8
Wednesday June 1, 2016 3:28pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
You say the EPL has great imports. Which is true. But almost half of those players come from the UK (Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, and England). 84 of those 180 come from those 4 countries. Those aren't really imports...Many of those players were scouted at young ages and have been in the England system as school boys.
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MSantoine
Post #9
Wednesday June 1, 2016 4:18pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from USAGunner

You say the EPL has great imports. Which is true. But almost half of those players come from the UK (Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, and England). 84 of those 180 come from those 4 countries. Those aren't really imports...Many of those players were scouted at young ages and have been in the England system as school boys.


First you can easily say those teams qualified with just EPL guys, which shows the strength of the league. Secondly, if you didnt count those guys you cant count germany for bundesliga, or spain for la liga. In fact if you didnt count domestic guys the league total leaders would look like this (Euros only)

Germany - 52
England - 50
Italy - 38
Spain - 21
Turkey - 19
France - 17
Switzerland-10
Russia -8
Poland- 5
Ukraine - 5
Portugal- 2

You can see Germany & England are easily 1-2, then a gap to Italy and another gap to Spain & France. Its funny to see how low Portugal is. It really goes to show how much that league has fallen. Also note that if Netherlands didnt suck then EPL would have still been first as Netehrlands has 15 players in their pool who play in EPL with only 3 in germany (0 in spain)

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #10
Wednesday June 1, 2016 6:30pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, I've always agreed with you about the depth of the EPL (I contend it makes them better than La Liga). Just saying that it's not just imports for EPL.

La Liga has 6 teams that can compete on the European stage. I'd say that anything after 10 wouldn't make it through qualifying rounds of Europa, and if they did, they would finish 4th in the Group Stage. Then if you get to Segunda Division, trash.

Bundesliga and EPL have 20+ teams that would do just as well as the 10th team in Spain.

If I had to rate the quality of the league's I'd say:
1-Bundesliga - They have the depth (not quite as deep as EPL, but close), and the top teams that can win Champs league (Bayern, BvB)
2-EPL - They have such depth and still send quite a few to the later stages of the Champs league, just haven't been on top in awhile.
3-Spain - They have little depth, but they have 3 teams that are VERY good and compete most years for Champs league. They have a couple others that can compete in Europe. But falls of real fast after that.
4-Italy - They have good depth and usually one team (Juventus, AC Milan, Intermilan take turns) that do very well in Europe.
5-Ligue 1 - They have depth like La Liga and only 1 team that can compete in Europe (but they usually do about as well as EPL teams) in PSG.
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hamsamwich
Post #11
Wednesday June 1, 2016 7:04pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,767
USA rocking it with the same as stupid France. Not a bad showing no matter how we pay for it... But @dolcem- many of the giovincos, dos santos etc aren't on full national teams. So some is development.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #12
Wednesday June 1, 2016 7:34pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Here is the breakdown for each Association in terms of % of their players on which level.
I have:
1-top teams (the teams that usually compete for Champ League and/or have dominated their league (PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Juventus, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, and Real Madrid). No one dominates the EPL and none of them consistently compete in Champs league (for title).

2-European spots (top 6 or 7) or higher

3-Those not in Relegation Battle (generally top 14-15) or higher

4-First Division teams or higher

5-Teams competing lower than 1st division and lower

England:
1-No dominant teams
2-43% in Europe
3-64% Top 14
4-77% in first division
5-23% compete in Champ/League one/League two

France:
1-26% are on PSG
2-49% in Europe
3-85% top 14
4-92% in first division
5-8% in lesser division

Germany:
1-23% are on Munich/BvB
2-49% in Europe
3-75% top 14
4-88% in Bundesliga
5-12% in lesser division

Italy:
1-18% are on Juventus
2-60% in Europe
3-88% in Top 14
4-95% in Serie A
5-5% in lesser division

Spain:
1-47% are on Barcelona, Real Madrid, or Atletico Madrid
2-67% in Europe
3-85% in top 14
4-93% in La Liga
5-7% in lesser division

So 67% of talent in Spanish leagues are on the teams playing in Europe. VERY top heavy. Almost half are on the top 3 teams.
Spain has a higher % playing for those 3 teams than England does playing for European teams.
2/3rds of Spanish league talent is on the top 7 teams (if you included the slumping Villareal then it would be something like 80%. Those teams would compete with anyone in any league at any level and compete for European spots.

England is INCREDIBLY deep. Spain is INCREDIBLY top heavy.

All of England down into the top few teams from the Championship would compete for European spots in most any league.
there are 43 total playing in Championship or less in England. Thats more than France.

So I'd say Championship is in and of it self very likely a top 10 league.
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cleancutimage
Post #13
Sunday June 5, 2016 7:22pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,231
Laurent Ciman scored the winning goal for Belgium vs. Norway. Looks good for MLS. I watched the last 10 minutes of the match and he fit into that team well. Prove that MLS does not retard your ability. If a player can play at a high level, he can do it anywhere in any circumstance.

That said, hopefully Ciman sees a lot of minutes in Euro 16.

dolcem
Post #14
Tuesday June 7, 2016 10:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,802
You guys are hilarious with your counting and your stats.

Look at the top teams in England. They have all these international stars, they should be dominating in Europe according to your metrics, and yet they don't.

This isn't an American sport. You can have a team full of talented internationals that doesn't play well at all. We've seen it happen time and time again.

The problem with the EPL is that no matter how many foreigners you bring in, it's still English. The English style of play is light years behind what's going on in continental Europe. It's been like this for a while. So you can throw in all of these high-priced foreigners, but they aren't English. They did not grow up out of the system and they do not have the understanding with their teammates that, say, someone at Ajax does (since they have a well-defined style of play taught at all levels). Few of these English teams actually grew organically. They simply buy good players (and managers) from other European leagues rather than developing from the base up the way Spanish and German teams do. Where are the English managers? The English players?

You can't buy success. That goes for any level, whether it's Champions League teams or in the Championship (and the idea that the Championship is a top ten league in the world is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on here...I mean who here is looking forward to watching Hull play next season? You guys honestly think they're a good football team?). You can have a team full of international players but if they've only played together for a few seasons and never developed a meaningful style of play, they won't be very good. Maybe there are more good players in the EPL than any other league, but the English teams are not as good as their Spanish and German counterparts. This has been proven time and time again in European competition.

Spain and Germany produce top level players and managers from their own system. They have less money and rather than buy success have to develop it from the ground up. And guess what? They play better team soccer than the EPL teams. They have more of an identity, a better defined and more advanced style of play than the kick and run that you see in the EPL. This is why they do better in continental competition than the English. Sure their salaries are lower, they have fewer internationally recognized stars, but these teams play better soccer, and this is why they win.

The notion that La Liga is "top heavy" is ridiculous. When was the last time a Champions League team was relegated in the EPL? When was the last time a mid-table English team thrashed Real Madrid or Barcelona in Spain? When was the last time an English player from a bottom of the table team went to Spain and dominated?

Atletico Madrid was full of mid-table Spanish players and they dominate in the Champions League. Then they sell their best players and still dominate. What is "top heavy about that?"

I know you guys are used to FIFA and the EPL teams have better overall ratings but the game isn't played on paper.
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Rey Regicide
Post #15
Wednesday June 8, 2016 12:25pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from dolcem

You guys are hilarious with your counting and your stats.

Look at the top teams in England. They have all these international stars, they should be dominating in Europe according to your metrics, and yet they don't.

This isn't an American sport. You can have a team full of talented internationals that doesn't play well at all. We've seen it happen time and time again.

The problem with the EPL is that no matter how many foreigners you bring in, it's still English. The English style of play is light years behind what's going on in continental Europe. It's been like this for a while. So you can throw in all of these high-priced foreigners, but they aren't English. They did not grow up out of the system and they do not have the understanding with their teammates that, say, someone at Ajax does (since they have a well-defined style of play taught at all levels). Few of these English teams actually grew organically. They simply buy good players (and managers) from other European leagues rather than developing from the base up the way Spanish and German teams do. Where are the English managers? The English players?

You can't buy success. That goes for any level, whether it's Champions League teams or in the Championship (and the idea that the Championship is a top ten league in the world is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on here...I mean who here is looking forward to watching Hull play next season? You guys honestly think they're a good football team?). You can have a team full of international players but if they've only played together for a few seasons and never developed a meaningful style of play, they won't be very good. Maybe there are more good players in the EPL than any other league, but the English teams are not as good as their Spanish and German counterparts. This has been proven time and time again in European competition.

Spain and Germany produce top level players and managers from their own system. They have less money and rather than buy success have to develop it from the ground up. And guess what? They play better team soccer than the EPL teams. They have more of an identity, a better defined and more advanced style of play than the kick and run that you see in the EPL. This is why they do better in continental competition than the English. Sure their salaries are lower, they have fewer internationally recognized stars, but these teams play better soccer, and this is why they win.

The notion that La Liga is "top heavy" is ridiculous. When was the last time a Champions League team was relegated in the EPL? When was the last time a mid-table English team thrashed Real Madrid or Barcelona in Spain? When was the last time an English player from a bottom of the table team went to Spain and dominated?

Atletico Madrid was full of mid-table Spanish players and they dominate in the Champions League. Then they sell their best players and still dominate. What is "top heavy about that?"

I know you guys are used to FIFA and the EPL teams have better overall ratings but the game isn't played on paper.


mikel arteta was one of the best midfielders int he premier league when he was good, he wasn't all world, but one of the best, at the Everton of the league

an Englishman going to the everton of the la liga gets international caps

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