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cudevil
Post #61
Thursday July 19, 2018 5:59pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 931
Original post from bjelks

@db707 I never said that Moore was really good. Someone said that Cannon was and we all know that's not true because he plays in MLS which people outside of America, consider to be a 3rd tier league.

The problem in the US Men's program is that we don't have a lot of really good players, but we have quite a few young high potential players such as Moore that have the hungry to test themselves at the highest level, La Liga, and they shouldn't be penalized because someone their age is playing more in a lesser league.

@lilshmike I have to ask, how much of a MLS homer are you? Who won the Champions League the last 3 yrs in a row? What 2 teams were in Champs League final in 2016? Now how many MLS players transfer to La Liga each yr and step into starting roles each year? How many La Liga 2 players transfer or promote to La Liga and start each year? Why does MLS put a team of its best players together to play the reserves and youth of big European clubs every yr and often look outclassed? Also, La Liga 2 just like Germ, Eng, Italy is mostly comprised of young players on loan from division 1 sides or veteran players that are fighting to get to a top division. Intl players in MLS are there because they are either easing into retirement or looking for easy mins and an easy check.
I could go on, but there's a lot more evidence pointing to a regular La Liga 2 being better than an MLS regular at the same age and position.

@lilshmike Chandler and Yedlin have nothing to do with the assertion that Cannon is better than Moore, which is what started this exchange.


Actually, you were the one that said he was had more technical ability than Yedlin, but with the same athleticism. Despite that, you somehow tried to claim that you weren't advocating that he start over Yedlin...

You also conveniently ignore that there are legitimate, objective barriers to entry when it comes to moving from the MLS to teams in Europe-i.e. work permit and passport issues, particularly for younger players. I am absolutely confident that there are a lot of guys in their mid to late 20's in the MLS that could play in any number of European leagues, but it's a lot easier to get the same quality of player from England, Germany, Spain, Portugal, etc. etc. than it is to bring a guy over from the States.

Know Nothing
Post #62
Thursday July 19, 2018 6:34pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,617
And it is being conveniently ignored that a lot of teams may have inquired about a loan but his team must agree. It is possible more teams wanted Moore from other leagues but his club decided staying in Spain was the best option and they only accepted this option.

bjelks
Post #63
Thursday July 19, 2018 6:49pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from Lilshmike

I'm not an MLS homer in the least, I'm just realistic. And in reality, MLS is legitimately much better and these 2nd division European leagues are much worse than you make them out to be. The only advantage the 2nd division leagues have are the possibility of promotion.

I could answer your points individually, but I won't bloat this thread too much more than it already has been.


We can just agree that you as an American have a soft spot for MLS and that's fine, but until MLS players start demanding transfers on average of over $20mil, there's nothing you could tell me to make me believe the international football world thinks highly of MLS players.
Jozy Altidore was the highest MLS transfer ever at 10mil to Villarreal which was table scraps.
Furthermore, can you tell me of any players in MLS on anybody's top 100 list players in the world list and when?

It's ok to have strong feelings for your country's league but being emotional doesn't win trophies.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #64
Thursday July 19, 2018 7:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from cudevil

Actually, you were the one that said he was had more technical ability than Yedlin, but with the same athleticism. Despite that, you somehow tried to claim that you weren't advocating that he start over Yedlin...

You also conveniently ignore that there are legitimate, objective barriers to entry when it comes to moving from the MLS to teams in Europe-i.e. work permit and passport issues, particularly for younger players. I am absolutely confident that there are a lot of guys in their mid to late 20's in the MLS that could play in any number of European leagues, but it's a lot easier to get the same quality of player from England, Germany, Spain, Portugal, etc. etc. than it is to bring a guy over from the States.


I'll stand behind Moore having better technical ability than Yedlin with close to or equal athleticism. Better first touch, more confidence and creativity going forward, better passer in tight spaces etc. I believe with more seasoning and regular minutes, he'll have a strong case to be starter and if he continues to develop, he has the foundation to have a much higher ceiling than Yedlin, who has peaked. Yedlin looks like a college player that played MLS and it shows. He just has elite athleticism that bails him out if trouble.

Jozy, Bradley, and Demps are and were considered the best American MLS players. Jozy and Bradley moved back to MLS in their primes because they didn't have the mentality to fight for a spot in Europe and they knew they'd have a guaranteed roster spot on the Natl team.
Demps just was aged out of a Champs League Premier team, so I respect him more.
But these guys were considered our best and didn't have the mentality or the quality to keep a spot in European first division, but you're telling me the players that are worse than them do?
Now that's laughable.
goalsense
db707
Post #65
Thursday July 19, 2018 7:19pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 959
And bjelks you have a very soft spot for European leagues even if they aren't fulfilling the same criteria you note above. See here with the Spanish second division, Gall (previously waived by an MLS team) in the Swedish league, etc. Just because you have a negative opinion of MLS doesn't make those leagues and the players in them automatically better. Nor automatically worse. But you seem set in your worldview.

bjelks
Post #66
Thursday July 19, 2018 7:44pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
I have a soft spot for winning and our league and national team have historically not, because of a history of being soft, under developing players, and awarding players based on political ties and not quality, mentality, and ambition.

If I'm a 20 yr old regularly playing in La Liga 2 and fighting for a promotion spot, I'm getting better competition, coaching, and training experience than someone of the same age in MLS.
I'm just playing in a system that has been much more successful at producing top level players.

Most of all the mentality and ambition of players in La Liga 2 is worlds a part from MLS.
MLS regulars don't have the pro/ rel pressure and MLS regular players don't have to fight for their place everyday.

It's nothing against MLS but we have a long way to go in how the league is ran and how players are developed.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #67
Thursday July 19, 2018 11:46pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 931
Original post from bjelks

I'll stand behind Moore having better technical ability than Yedlin with close to or equal athleticism. Better first touch, more confidence and creativity going forward, better passer in tight spaces etc. I believe with more seasoning and regular minutes, he'll have a strong case to be starter and if he continues to develop, he has the foundation to have a much higher ceiling than Yedlin, who has peaked. Yedlin looks like a college player that played MLS and it shows. He just has elite athleticism that bails him out if trouble.

Jozy, Bradley, and Demps are and were considered the best American MLS players. Jozy and Bradley moved back to MLS in their primes because they didn't have the mentality to fight for a spot in Europe and they knew they'd have a guaranteed roster spot on the Natl team.
Demps just was aged out of a Champs League Premier team, so I respect him more.
But these guys were considered our best and didn't have the mentality or the quality to keep a spot in European first division, but you're telling me the players that are worse than them do?
Now that's laughable.


Bradley and Jozy moved back because they were offered far more money than they would have earned Europe. The idea that Bradley didn't have the mentality to compete for a spot in Europe is particularly laughable.

hamsamwich
Post #68
Friday July 20, 2018 12:36am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,142
Moore was called out by many on this board (myself and a few others defended Moore at the time) during the u20 World Cup a few cycles ago for being just a decent player. Not much has changed in his game since then: he's athletic, can run the line and defend and put in a cross. His vision and technical ability lack a little bit. Going to Spain is supposed to improve those weaknesses and he has slowly climbed up the pyramid there from div 3. Give him credit Moore has made a good choice.... he didn't really play La Liga ball last year save for a few spot starts for the injured first team players. Getting a full season is important for Moore, even if it's Liga 2. Look at antonee Robinson, who, until getting a full season in the championship, would have hoped for spot starts for Everton in case of injury. But he got a full season and even Spanish second division the quality overall is better than MLS. The athleticism of players in MLS is supreme for sure and the top echelon of teams and players are better than Liga 2, but I'd back those teams technical and mental abilities over that of MLS, especially for the particular development of this player, Moore. Reggie Cannon is up and coming and could well be better than Moore at his age, he's on a trajectory to anyways. We will see when Cannon plays at the u20 World Cup what he really has vs other quality players his age around the world. Moore at times looked overmatched, at times his speed and quality crosses translated along with his field length runs. We saw that with USA vs Ireland and France. Can he get better technically and mentally is the challenge for him.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #69
Friday July 20, 2018 12:46am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,356
Oh I think it will be a good move for Moore. I think Moore has many good qualities. His crossing ability is very good, his 1 v1 defending is still lacking. I think the USMNT will be quite good for RB going forward. Yedlin, Chandler, Moore, and Cannon.

Lilshmike
Post #70
Friday July 20, 2018 2:18pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,177
Let's be honest, how much Segunda Division does anyone on this site actually watch? The argument that its more technical and better of a league than MLS is a joke. Again, the only advantage that it has over MLS is pro/rel, but the teams aren't very good. The only 2nd division leagues in Europe that one could argue with MLS are the Championship and Bundesliga 2.

Regardless, the most important thing in development is playing and getting minutes. Players will get noticed more times than not if they are good enough. Example: Deandre Yedlin. Played in MLS and moved from MLS to the Prem. At the same age as Moore is now, he was starting and playing in the toughest league in the world. To make any argument that Moore is more technical or better in any way than Yedlin (who started out in the MLS and was developed domestically) is a joke. If he was, he wouldn't be in Segunda Division...

munns5986
Post #71
Friday July 20, 2018 2:49pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 272
Original post from Lilshmike

Let's be honest, how much Segunda Division does anyone on this site actually watch? The argument that its more technical and better of a league than MLS is a joke. Again, the only advantage that it has over MLS is pro/rel, but the teams aren't very good. The only 2nd division leagues in Europe that one could argue with MLS are the Championship and Bundesliga 2.

Regardless, the most important thing in development is playing and getting minutes. Players will get noticed more times than not if they are good enough. Example: Deandre Yedlin. Played in MLS and moved from MLS to the Prem. At the same age as Moore is now, he was starting and playing in the toughest league in the world. To make any argument that Moore is more technical or better in any way than Yedlin (who started out in the MLS and was developed domestically) is a joke. If he was, he wouldn't be in Segunda Division...


I understand what you are saying but you are discrediting someone else's argument when the same post discredits yours. You don't watch the second division either so how do you know it isn't better than MLS? If what people are saying that the second division is primarily players on loan from the first division then I can see the benefit of playing there because you are going against people of like mind.

hamsamwich
Post #72
Friday July 20, 2018 2:49pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,142
I didn't say the league was better just that the style is more technical and mental than the aggressive, all over the place MLS. I prefer the parity and I know the local players but the second divisions of the top European leagues offer a different brand of soccer than the MLS. People have said similar things about 2 bund, etc. What I myself am saying is that even though they are second tier players physically the mental aspect of the games in those medium divisions overseas is higher than the relatively low soccer IQ but all action American game.

Shaq Moore has always been a guy I like, but he's not better currently than Yedlin, who people seem to take for granted.

bjelks
Post #73
Friday July 20, 2018 6:31pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from Lilshmike

Let's be honest, how much Segunda Division does anyone on this site actually watch? The argument that its more technical and better of a league than MLS is a joke. Again, the only advantage that it has over MLS is pro/rel, but the teams aren't very good. The only 2nd division leagues in Europe that one could argue with MLS are the Championship and Bundesliga 2.

Regardless, the most important thing in development is playing and getting minutes. Players will get noticed more times than not if they are good enough. Example: Deandre Yedlin. Played in MLS and moved from MLS to the Prem. At the same age as Moore is now, he was starting and playing in the toughest league in the world. To make any argument that Moore is more technical or better in any way than Yedlin (who started out in the MLS and was developed domestically) is a joke. If he was, he wouldn't be in Segunda Division...


Let's consider that a United States men's national team primarily comprised of the top players in MLS all past their prime failed to qualify in arguably the weakest qualifying group in the world. In addition, they sealed their disqualification by losing to a team full of amateurs.
Let's also consider that MLS is comprised of college players, Central Americans that have never had formal training, former US prospects, and over age Euro players looking to ease into retirement. The best thing about MLS is that it gives young Americans a chance to prove themselves worthy of a bigger contract in Europe.

Now in La Liga 2, Championship, Bundesliga 2, and Serie B you're playing in development systems that have produced World Cup champions, Champions League champions and Ballon d'Ors. Everyone even in their 2nd divisions has had academy training at a proven and credible pro club, has either played in the top division, trying to get to a top division, or signed to a first division club and on loan, and lastly top division clubs rate these 2nd division clubs to buy players over MLS. I'm all ears for an actual non bias tangible discussion about the level of play in MLS compared 2nd division in Europe, but I'm not convinced with emotional banter.

Actually, Yedlin wasn't even making the game day roster for Tottenham when he was the same age as Moore now. He was then loaned to a bottom team in the Premier League where they fought off relegation. He then transferred to a team that was recently promoted and they finished mid table in a league with a lot of parity. Now Tottenham initially signed him for his raw athleticism. The reason Yedlin could not make Tottenham's 1st team and be a regular was because of the glaring decencies in his technique and tactical understanding. At this stage in his career, that can't be fixed. If you watch him, whenever he's pressured he back passes or long balls, that's because he's not comfortable with the ball under pressure.
Even in his overlaps, he back passes and that's ok because Eng isn't as technical a league as Spain.

When Moore is pressured, he either plays the way he's facing to feet or turns away from pressure, when he overlaps, he tries to take defenders on, get behind and cross. That's because he's more technical than Yedlin. Your league doesn't always define technical ability.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #74
Friday July 20, 2018 8:19pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 931
Original post from bjelks

Let's consider that a United States men's national team primarily comprised of the top players in MLS all past their prime failed to qualify in arguably the weakest qualifying group in the world. In addition, they sealed their disqualification by losing to a team full of amateurs.
Let's also consider that MLS is comprised of college players, Central Americans that have never had formal training, former US prospects, and over age Euro players looking to ease into retirement. The best thing about MLS is that it gives young Americans a chance to prove themselves worthy of a bigger contract in Europe.

Now in La Liga 2, Championship, Bundesliga 2, and Serie B you're playing in development systems that have produced World Cup champions, Champions League champions and Ballon d'Ors. Everyone even in their 2nd divisions has had academy training at a proven and credible pro club, has either played in the top division, trying to get to a top division, or signed to a first division club and on loan, and lastly top division clubs rate these 2nd division clubs to buy players over MLS. I'm all ears for an actual non bias tangible discussion about the level of play in MLS compared 2nd division in Europe, but I'm not convinced with emotional banter.

Actually, Yedlin wasn't even making the game day roster for Tottenham when he was the same age as Moore now. He was then loaned to a bottom team in the Premier League where they fought off relegation. He then transferred to a team that was recently promoted and they finished mid table in a league with a lot of parity. Now Tottenham initially signed him for his raw athleticism. The reason Yedlin could not make Tottenham's 1st team and be a regular was because of the glaring decencies in his technique and tactical understanding. At this stage in his career, that can't be fixed. If you watch him, whenever he's pressured he back passes or long balls, that's because he's not comfortable with the ball under pressure.
Even in his overlaps, he back passes and that's ok because Eng isn't as technical a league as Spain.

When Moore is pressured, he either plays the way he's facing to feet or turns away from pressure, when he overlaps, he tries to take defenders on, get behind and cross. That's because he's more technical than Yedlin. Your league doesn't always define technical ability.


Placing way too much emphasis on a failed WC campaign. Mexico was out in '14 if not for us. They have a ton of players from their domestic league. Does that mean their league stinks?

And you know how it's easy to know you are wrong about Moore? Because the guy you claim is a ++ athlete with technical ability just got loaned out from a bottom table La Liga team to a middle table Segunda team. That simply doesn't happen to elite athletes with technical ability.

bjelks
Post #75
Friday July 20, 2018 9:39pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
I've never said that MLS stinks, but I will stand behind it not being as good at developing talent as 2nd division in Europe. I'll also stand behind the competition and quality of play not being as good.

Mexico's League has been around 53 yrs longer than MLS. They have a passionate and educated football culture that has threatened players and managers for poor performances. Mexico has won the Confed Cup, the Olympics, and U17 WC. They have produced players that have competed in the champions league final and won. Liga Mex has produced a player that transferred for twice as much as the highest MLS player transfer. America and MLS body of work in no way measures up to Mexico's, we have no business comparing our league and natl team to theirs. Last but not least, they haven't failed to qualify in 28 yrs.

I've never said Moore was a ++ athlete. I have said his athleticism is close to Yedlin's, which I consider to be an elite athlete. I stand behind Moore having better technical ability than Yedlin, but that's not saying a lot. Just because you have good technical ability, doesn't mean you will consistently show it or you will be favored by a manager who's picking from 5 other guys with just as good technique.
goalsense
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