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Rey Regicide
Post #1
Tuesday November 10, 2015 2:39pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
"What's perhaps more impressive is that the slight Brazilian-born player, known for his deft touch and exemplary vision rather than his tenacious tackling, has become a defensive whirlwind at the center of Sporting Kansas City's high-pressure style. His 2.8 tackles per game tie him for 12th in the league, a fraction behind midfield destroyer Kyle Beckerman and almost a tackle per game ahead of United States national teamers Michael Bradley and Mix Diskerud. Add that all up, and you get a player in the thick of the leaguewide MVP race alongside Italian stud Sebastian Giovinco and Irish attacking mainstay (and goofy cartwheeler) Robbie Keane."

Bigups to Skangles for the article, love it

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/usmnt-benny...

it routed me to that link

then that paragraph to which I thought to myself... again... statistics

So I ask you guys, who should be the ones recording the most tackles on a team?

Who should be the guys in zone coverage (cutting out passes) and who should be marking chasing down hustling harassing?

dolcem
Post #2
Tuesday November 10, 2015 3:37pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Statistics like this are completely meaningless. The best defensive players usually don't record many tackles. The tackle is employed as a means of last resort as it is risky. A good defender doesn't need to make many because he positions himself well enough that attackers don't even attempt to go by him. Furthermore, so few tackles are made per game that it's clearly insignificant. Are we really going to make a big deal about the difference between a player that makes 2.8 tackles a game and one that makes 1.8 per game? How often does one tackle in the midfield change the outcome of a game?

And no thanks to a Benny Feilhaber call-up. We've already seen what he can do for the NT-he's not an international-caliber player. I was a fan of him five years ago or so but I'd rather see other guys get a chance. Heck Diskerud is a lot better.
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Rey Regicide
Post #3
Tuesday November 10, 2015 4:33pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
yea i always felt that if your goalie was stopping too many shots =D or your defender were making too many tackles, your team is doing it wrong, your backs should almost be like safeties and corners in zonal coverage and linebackers should be your midfielders racing around trying to tackle everything in sight

that's what's beautiful about football, because as soon as you win the ball, your midfielders should turn into slot receivers and just concentrate on finding space and getting open

dolcem
Post #4
Tuesday November 10, 2015 5:54pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Original post from Rey Regicide

yea i always felt that if your goalie was stopping too many shots =D or your defender were making too many tackles, your team is doing it wrong, your backs should almost be like safeties and corners in zonal coverage and linebackers should be your midfielders racing around trying to tackle everything in sight

that's what's beautiful about football, because as soon as you win the ball, your midfielders should turn into slot receivers and just concentrate on finding space and getting open


Original post from Rey Regicide

yea i always felt that if your goalie was stopping too many shots =D or your defender were making too many tackles, your team is doing it wrong, your backs should almost be like safeties and corners in zonal coverage and linebackers should be your midfielders racing around trying to tackle everything in sight

that's what's beautiful about football, because as soon as you win the ball, your midfielders should turn into slot receivers and just concentrate on finding space and getting open


BTW I didn't mean to be negative in my last post, sorry, if it came off that way.

Good point though about the goalie/defenders. That's another thing that people don't realize. Saves isn't really an accurate stat for goalkeepers, either. The best keepers typically play for the best teams, who concede fewer shots, a keeper who commands the box well is likely to receive fewer shots, etc.

But that's the beauty of soccer. It's more than a sport, it's an art. American sports are utilitarian and mathematical, easily analyzed through statistics, but soccer can't be dissected that way. Even the most obvious statistics, like goals, are misleading. Few informed observers were fooled by Darren Bent's strike rate: anyone could tell he was mediocre, at best, and Sunderland, for example, actually scored more goals when he was off the pitch than on. Just as there is no way to logically prove the greatness of a Rembrandt, the genius of a Riquelme or a Xavi can't be quantified.

I've always believed that people who truly understand soccer know that it's the greatest game ever invented.
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Rey Regicide
Post #5
Tuesday November 10, 2015 8:12pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
no I got your disdain for statistics rather than for my post

and honestly, I don't have a disdain for statistics by themselves, only when there's no context or structure that you're trying to look at

like take derek jeter, I think he's by far one of the smartest baseball players ever, but the dude was not an overwhelming natural talent

the statistic that jumps right out at you, the only one that says he's truly a great (aside from championships, which of course is a team thing) is runs scored

again, one of the smartest players ever, but he played in a hitter's park in front of stacked lineups for his whole career because his team had the pockets

does that fact diminish his standing? no of course not, but it can't unilaterally evaluate a player

Rey Regicide
Post #6
Friday February 17, 2017 1:47pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
http://www.starsandstripesfc.com/usmnt-news/2...

Dolcem, rem awhile back you were saying it was an achievement that Bradley got into the coaching ranks at Swansea, due to his lack of exposure to high level football in formative years.

Here's an article on Jordan Morris and him saying he is studying movements from essentially the better, to best players around in the world today.

Aside from collecting multiple tapes, during the 80's how else would you have been able to catch glimpses of the best professionals plying their craft at the highest level?

Technology has played a major role in our kids learning how to play soccer, if not better, like the rest of the world. My hypothesis.

You would imagine sooner, trailing this development, we'll see coaching with outside influence further infiltrate MLS or even Academy ranks. Some might argue Porter had elements of that.

dolcem
Post #7
Friday February 17, 2017 3:00pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,712
Original post from Rey Regicide

Technology has played a major role in our kids learning how to play soccer, if not better, like the rest of the world. My hypothesis.


Definitely agree. It's essential that our kids grow up watching soccer if they expect to play it well. But even more important than watching it is getting elite coaching at a young age, and we don't quite have that in the US yet.

Original post from Rey Regicide

You would imagine sooner, trailing this development, we'll see coaching with outside influence further infiltrate MLS or even Academy ranks. Some might argue Porter had elements of that.


The players need to watch the best players play in order to improve their understanding of the game. The coaches, alongside watching the best players play, need to watch the best coaches coach, and the only way to do that is inside the locker room of a top-flight club.

Remember, soccer is very different from American sports in that 99% of managers played it at the highest levels. It won't be someone like Coach Bob that can succeed in a top five league, it'll be someone like Steve Cherundolo.
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Rey Regicide
Post #8
Friday February 17, 2017 4:05pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
Original post from dolcem

Remember, soccer is very different from American sports in that 99% of managers played it at the highest levels. It won't be someone like Coach Bob that can succeed in a top five league, it'll be someone like Steve Cherundolo.


Interesting perspective.

Know Nothing
Post #9
Friday February 17, 2017 7:42pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,084
Interesting topic question. No real right answer depending on how a team is structured and trained, but I believe there will certainly be a correlation between success and your best tackler being further up the pitch.

Rey Regicide
Post #10
Friday February 17, 2017 8:08pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
Damn, sorta steered this toward the topic I started earlier, but I had struggled to find the space where Dolcem was talking about Bob Bradley and his tenure at Swansea and how it represented an unprecedented feat.

But yea, in pickup, when we play, we're constantly having to be bailed out by people who make up the last line of defense in 1 v 1 battles, but generally I would say 30 to 40 percent of the time you concede a goal that way. I have to believe that in an ideal world the higher up you're winning your tackles, the better secured you are and insulated from any real danger consistently. And conversely if your defense is having to make alot of tackles, it's the equivalent of your safeties in football making those. They're getting by your defensive end and linebackers too frequently.

It's a theory, hypothesis better said, but def in Barca's hey day the mid field was eating up space and picking pockets.

In Loews Germany Mueller, Podolski, and Klose all did work. Even Ozil broke a sweat.

Know Nothing
Post #11
Friday February 17, 2017 10:06pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,084
Plenty of other evidence...look at Leicester last year with Kante and this year without him...and it is no coincidence that he is on the league leaders again this season.

But barring that, I suppose having an outside back be your leading tackler would not be the worst thing in the world either...it shows you are keeping your opponent out of the middle in the more dangerous places.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #12
Saturday February 18, 2017 11:48am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 1,872
Fine, I'll play devil's advocate to some of what was said above:

Being a good tackler is important because it allows you to:
• make big plays in critical situations
• channel players into situations where you know you can challenge them as opposed to letting them pick up their head and look

and:
You don't want your CBs to have to do it all game because they're harder to sub, as opposed to a DM or FB

Rey Regicide
Post #13
Wednesday February 22, 2017 1:25pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
Original post from mmee

Fine, I'll play devil's advocate to some of what was said above:

Being a good tackler is important because it allows you to:
• make big plays in critical situations
• channel players into situations where you know you can challenge them as opposed to letting them pick up their head and look

and:
You don't want your CBs to have to do it all game because they're harder to sub, as opposed to a DM or FB


That last point is real interesting.

Thanks for that perspective.

Rey Regicide
Post #14
Wednesday February 22, 2017 1:28pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 1,774
Original post from Know Nothing

Plenty of other evidence...look at Leicester last year with Kante and this year without him...and it is no coincidence that he is on the league leaders again this season.

But barring that, I suppose having an outside back be your leading tackler would not be the worst thing in the world either...it shows you are keeping your opponent out of the middle in the more dangerous places.


Leicester, however beautiful their style was, was in essence reactive.

I think Chelsea to an extent is still that way, please chime in if I get it wrong, I haven't really paid too much this year to Chelsea. Is Conte still using the 5 3 2?

Know Nothing
Post #15
Wednesday February 22, 2017 9:16pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,084
The base is more a 3-4-3, but against the better teams it is more a 5-3-2

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