RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
admsghs27
Post #46
Wednesday December 30, 2015 4:15am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
No Pro/Rel will never work in USA the league/Owners will lose Millions it is just not our style. We don't have to be like everyone else to be a great league. The only thing i do agree on is the number of teams 24 is enough there shouldn't be more after that unless other franchises start to fail in all categories then they could fold and bring a new one in. Also i don't want MLS to be #1 in the world i will be happy if were top 5 i care more about the growth of players that could elevate the MNT to a world power and hopefully bring a WC soon. Because at the end of the day that's the Ultimate Goal to win a WC not be the best league in the world.

MSantoine
Post #47
Wednesday December 30, 2015 6:10pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
I think MLS should not limit themselves in terms of league size. All the other pro sports leagues are 30-32 teams. If you take the big southern canadian teams into account its not hard to find 32 possible teams.

That said they shouldnt expand just to expand. As the salary cap goes up, and stars like Giovinco, Del Santos, Drogba, come over in droves, then you expand. Right now 24 teams is perfect. In 5 years we may have enough talent/money for 28 teams. There's definitely enough markets and stadiums for 32 teams (Minnesota, St Louis, Vegas, San Antonio, Sacremento, San Diego, Jacksonville, etc) its more of you need to avoid the watering down of talent by spreading out to quickly.

Regarding the J League vs MLS you cant really compare. The main reason relegation wont work in USA even though it works in other countries is the size of our country. Pretty much every major market only has 1 team. If that team goes down (Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Phile) you lose a huge tv market. In Japan, theres 7 teams in/around Tokyo. In EPL there are 5 teams in London. Its like that everywhere. The most comparable country size wise is Russia. They have 4 teams in Moscow (there second division has another 4 teams), and all there teams are in about a third of the countries area. So even if a Moscow team gets relegated, there's still multiple Moscow teams to carry tv ratings, interest, rivalries etc. The only way relegation works in USA is if there are seperate leagues for east coast and west coast, AND each team has 20 teams, AND each league has a 2nd division with 20-24 teams in each region.

Of the top 5 countries by area- See Russian example above, Canada doesnt have a soccer league, & China pretty much only uses East Coast. Brazil- 3 Rio teams, 3 Sao Paolo teams, 19 of 20 teams in south east corner of the country.

Our geography is preventing pro/rel from being realistic more than anything else. None of the other countries cover as much land area as MLS does.

dolcem
Post #48
Wednesday December 30, 2015 6:35pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from MSantoine

I think MLS should not limit themselves in terms of league size. All the other pro sports leagues are 30-32 teams. If you take the big southern canadian teams into account its not hard to find 32 possible teams.

That said they shouldnt expand just to expand. As the salary cap goes up, and stars like Giovinco, Del Santos, Drogba, come over in droves, then you expand. Right now 24 teams is perfect. In 5 years we may have enough talent/money for 28 teams. There's definitely enough markets and stadiums for 32 teams (Minnesota, St Louis, Vegas, San Antonio, Sacremento, San Diego, Jacksonville, etc) its more of you need to avoid the watering down of talent by spreading out to quickly.

Regarding the J League vs MLS you cant really compare. The main reason relegation wont work in USA even though it works in other countries is the size of our country. Pretty much every major market only has 1 team. If that team goes down (Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Phile) you lose a huge tv market. In Japan, theres 7 teams in/around Tokyo. In EPL there are 5 teams in London. Its like that everywhere. The most comparable country size wise is Russia. They have 4 teams in Moscow (there second division has another 4 teams), and all there teams are in about a third of the countries area. So even if a Moscow team gets relegated, there's still multiple Moscow teams to carry tv ratings, interest, rivalries etc. The only way relegation works in USA is if there are seperate leagues for east coast and west coast, AND each team has 20 teams, AND each league has a 2nd division with 20-24 teams in each region.

Of the top 5 countries by area- See Russian example above, Canada doesnt have a soccer league, & China pretty much only uses East Coast. Brazil- 3 Rio teams, 3 Sao Paolo teams, 19 of 20 teams in south east corner of the country.

Our geography is preventing pro/rel from being realistic more than anything else. None of the other countries cover as much land area as MLS does.


There is no league in the world with enough talent for 30 teams. What makes you think we will be producing enough (homegrown American) in the next few years to support that many?
GET A CLUB TEAM
USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #49
Wednesday December 30, 2015 8:53pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
yeah just because the other major sports in the USA have 30-32 teams doesn't mean MLS should.
Not a good comparison.
For one, of those other 4 major leagues, 3 (NBA, MLB, NFL) of them have no other leagues that compete with them. The best players in the world play there. The other (Hockey) only has 1 other league (Russia) that competes with it (sort of). Soccer has so many leagues (1 in every country) and 5 of them vie for the very best players (EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and Serie A). So you aren't EVER going to have a similar dynamic with the MLS that you do with NFL, MLB, or NBA. Just isn't going to happen.

I wish American's would stop trying to duplicate certain things. Just because the NBA, NFL, MLB are so successful with a hard Salary Cap and revenue sharing doesn't mean that MLS will work the same way. We will never get the best players in the world if we can't pay them (and their teammates) equal to what they could make oversea's (really we would have to pay them more to make up for the lack of Competition). Even in the NBA you are slowly starting to see some people enticed by more money oversea's, as the European leagues continue to grow and get bigger. If they continue to grow, you could see some bigger stars that can't get max contracts here in the NBA leave for there.

The other thing you have working against you (which is changing) is that many of the major markets in the USA still don't care about Soccer. You aren't going to see Soccer selling out 70,000+ stadiums every week like NFL, or 20-30,000 Arena's every other day. The fans just aren't there. Also aren't going to see 10+ million watching a soccer game on TV (regular MLS game). Maybe in 10-20 years you might start to see some of that stuff.

I also wish American's would stop trying to make the international aspect of other sports like International Soccer. Such as the World Cup of Baseball. Stop it, no one cares, it's never going to be successful like the Soccer World Cup is. MLB and Olympics need to work something out to where the Olympic games have Major League players and the worlds best. a LOT more people would care.
But then again I think a LOT of the Olympics should change and do away with this idealistic "Amateurism". Really only 2 of them even have "amateur's" anymore anyways and that's Baseball and Boxing. 2 sports that are a LOT less popular in the olympics than they are in real life. All the rest of the sports have the very best in the world.
www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com
dolcem
Post #50
Thursday December 31, 2015 5:00am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
I agree with everything else in your post but the salary cap is a great American innovation that keeps the MLS afloat (it gives teams like the Crew or the Rapids a chance. and keeps the fans watching). It doesn't hold us back in any way. The quality of a league is, more than anything, determined by its youth system. Spanish and German teams (aside from those three big teams) don't spend nearly as much as their English counterparts but top to bottom are just as good, simply because their youth teams constantly churn out quality players. South American leagues, because of their poverty, have de facto salary caps and it doesn't hold them back from producing great players and fielding competitive teams.
GET A CLUB TEAM
MSantoine
Post #51
Thursday December 31, 2015 12:32pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from dolcem

There is no league in the world with enough talent for 30 teams. What makes you think we will be producing enough (homegrown American) in the next few years to support that many?


Who said anything about producing the talent? If MLS keeps growing they will be able to buy the talent. Money talks. As the salary floor goes up we'll be able to poach more and more guys from South America to fill rosters and from Europe for star power. As MLS stands today there isn't a lot of homegrown stars in MLS.

For the record EPL could easily support 30 clubs (take most of the rest of French league top talent combine with top championship sides). Bundesliga too (top polish/austrian/swiss guys plus top bundesliga 2 sides).

The one benefit MLS has over Europe is that we are kind of isolated. You want to live in Munich you have several teams to choose from. Heck you could live in Germany and play in Poland and its no big deal. Once the money grows the league will grow too. No reason it cant support 30 teams

Spank
661
Post #52
Thursday December 31, 2015 5:25pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 132
I think most of you miss the point of pro/rel and what the people are fighting for.

dolcem
Post #53
Thursday December 31, 2015 5:26pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from MSantoine

Who said anything about producing the talent? If MLS keeps growing they will be able to buy the talent. Money talks. As the salary floor goes up we'll be able to poach more and more guys from South America to fill rosters and from Europe for star power. As MLS stands today there isn't a lot of homegrown stars in MLS.

For the record EPL could easily support 30 clubs (take most of the rest of French league top talent combine with top championship sides). Bundesliga too (top polish/austrian/swiss guys plus top bundesliga 2 sides).

The one benefit MLS has over Europe is that we are kind of isolated. You want to live in Munich you have several teams to choose from. Heck you could live in Germany and play in Poland and its no big deal. Once the money grows the league will grow too. No reason it cant support 30 teams


Yeah but because of foreign player requirements most of the players have to be American. Your example of combining English/French leagues don't make sense because you're combining the player pools of two different countries that produce tons of quality players. No two countries are going to combine their soccer leagues and neither the US nor England has enough talent to support 30 teams with foreign player requirements (and these rules are very necessary). This is why the EPL has 20 teams instead of 30.
GET A CLUB TEAM
MSantoine
Post #54
Thursday December 31, 2015 6:11pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from dolcem

Yeah but because of foreign player requirements most of the players have to be American. Your example of combining English/French leagues don't make sense because you're combining the player pools of two different countries that produce tons of quality players. No two countries are going to combine their soccer leagues and neither the US nor England has enough talent to support 30 teams with foreign player requirements (and these rules are very necessary). This is why the EPL has 20 teams instead of 30.


I guess I'm combining two different thoughts and not seperating them.

Yes England and France would never combine. Agree 100000%.

Also to support 30 teams you'd have to get rid of foreign player rules. My question would be why is it needed? NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB don't have any rules to limit foreigners. Why should MLS? I guess I envision a league where the teams sign the players they want, regardless of nationality. Some may say this will hurt USSF. My answer to that would be so what? If Im running MLS Im doing whats best for MLS and the owners of MLS teams. Do you think Gary Bettman and the NHL owners care how USA does in Olympic hockey? World Juniors? nope. The NBA players openly say they dont care about international basketball, and coaches hate when there players play. Again Im just saying that MLS could expand to 30 teams if they wanted to. Would it hurt the USNT? maybe. Would the MLS need to change their rules regarding player salaries and player movement? Absolutely. But its not out of the realm of posibilities

tylercocinas
Post #55
Thursday December 31, 2015 7:25pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
I understand people wanting the US to "find their own way" but why should we try to crack a code that has already been cracked? There's a reason most of world football is organized a certain way. We need our players to be playing at the highest level possible. We also need better grassroots initiatives to help younger players hone essential skills, and better youth coaching to help said players develop in to the best they can be.

As far as the evidence of other countries not winning any tournaments being a reason to not believe their way is best, that same Brazil squad that is not better off for having its top players in Europe absolutely smoked the US a few months ago. All the top nations would beat us like we stole something. I'm not anti MLS, (I'm as big a DC United fan as they come) and I see tangible signs of progress every season. It is also undeniable that the league provides American players with meaningful opportunities to play competitive matches. However, in addition to the youth changes I mentioned above, the top Americans must be playing in the crucible that is Europe.

Mojofc
Post #56
Thursday December 31, 2015 7:27pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Exactly why MLS and USSoccer shouldn't be in bed together MSantoine
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
dolcem
Post #57
Thursday December 31, 2015 9:33pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from MSantoine

I guess I'm combining two different thoughts and not seperating them.

Yes England and France would never combine. Agree 100000%.

Also to support 30 teams you'd have to get rid of foreign player rules. My question would be why is it needed? NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB don't have any rules to limit foreigners. Why should MLS? I guess I envision a league where the teams sign the players they want, regardless of nationality. Some may say this will hurt USSF. My answer to that would be so what? If Im running MLS Im doing whats best for MLS and the owners of MLS teams. Do you think Gary Bettman and the NHL owners care how USA does in Olympic hockey? World Juniors? nope. The NBA players openly say they dont care about international basketball, and coaches hate when there players play. Again Im just saying that MLS could expand to 30 teams if they wanted to. Would it hurt the USNT? maybe. Would the MLS need to change their rules regarding player salaries and player movement? Absolutely. But its not out of the realm of posibilities


Because those American sport leagues have no serious competitors. We don't need to worry about growing talent domestically, the NCAA system produces hundreds (even thousands) of top-tier players. Even being by far the most competitive leagues on the planet, the majority of the players are American. There just aren't enough foreign players to crowd out American talent.

This is not the case in soccer. There are at least thirty or so other countries that produce better soccer players than we do. You get rid of foreign player requirements and if the MLS starts improving financially (and raises the salary cap), the league will be almost entirely comprised of foreign players (especially from Latin America and Africa). The MLS then will fail to provide an environment conducive to the growth of the American player and American soccer (the national team, in particular) will suffer. The MLS needs the national team to do well if it wants to survive. It will never become a truly major American sports league without American stars. Why would people watch mediocre local soccer (and it will be decades before we can seriously compete with the big five in Europe) when the players aren't even our own?

Just about every soccer league in the world has foreign player requirements because they recognize the need to grow their own game domestically. And in the long run, in order to have a successful professional league, you need a strong local player pool. (The EPL has exponentially more money flowing into it than the Bundesliga or La Liga but it is not any better because you can't buy success without a strong base. This is why Real Madrid has been so inferior to Barcelona the past decade and why, say, PSG can't quite get to their level, either.)
GET A CLUB TEAM
cleancutimage
Post #58
Thursday December 31, 2015 10:46pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,309
I think the only foreign rule MLS should have is at least one American/Canadian outfield player on the field to start a match(for the extremists, then at all times). I would not mind having a team with 9 foreign outfield players, 1 American outfield player and the goalie whatever nationality but most likely American since we don't have a problem developing those.

I want to see the best players on the field not some YMCA-type 'At least 6 Americans must play' rule. This is will either force our players to get better or they will be rudely awakened. Put up or be on the bench or out of a job.

dolcem
Post #59
Friday January 1, 2016 7:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from cleancutimage

I think the only foreign rule MLS should have is at least one American/Canadian outfield player on the field to start a match(for the extremists, then at all times). I would not mind having a team with 9 foreign outfield players, 1 American outfield player and the goalie whatever nationality but most likely American since we don't have a problem developing those.

I want to see the best players on the field not some YMCA-type 'At least 6 Americans must play' rule. This is will either force our players to get better or they will be rudely awakened. Put up or be on the bench or out of a job.


You can't just "force our players to get better." Having more competition won't magically make them better. It will be decades before our youth system starts producing players like the Germans, French, etc., so sink or swim will mean that they will sink and that we will never develop good soccer players or have a good national team. Have you seen any successful leagues without caps on foreign players? Do you think the Qataris are doing a good job developing their soccer?
GET A CLUB TEAM
cleancutimage
Post #60
Friday January 1, 2016 7:17pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,309
Original post from dolcem

You can't just "force our players to get better." Having more competition won't magically make them better. It will be decades before our youth system starts producing players like the Germans, French, etc., so sink or swim will mean that they will sink and that we will never develop good soccer players or have a good national team. Have you seen any successful leagues without caps on foreign players? Do you think the Qataris are doing a good job developing their soccer?


Alright, yeah let's field a league full of college kids because they are American and see how entertaining and successful our league. Wait! That is what MLS is now and to be honest, it is quite boring soccer. They cannot connect passes to save their life, too much negative football, too many long balls. Without the foreign talent this league would be even more unbearable to watch. I watch MLS because I am American but I much rather watch an EPL, Bundesliga, Champions League match because it is more entertaining and attractive. Even when I watch Liga MX, you can see the technical ability is superior to MLS.

Yes, we need to challenge our players to get better. The best thing about soccer is you do not peak too early, you can still get better well into your late 20s-early 30s. They can learn from these players and get better. It is not like once they join the league, that is the end all for them and they never get better after that. Don't you want your players to get better year after year until they can no longer physically compete? I do. Being around better players will make you better or make you fail. That is the harsh reality of being a professional athlete in a top league, where MLS is trying to get.

Page 4 of 12
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10  Next » Last »»

With Jesse Marsch and David Wagner at the helms of teams in the top flight, YA will cover their exploits this season.
RECENT POSTS
YA Transfer Tracker
Yanks Face Relegation in England
Tale of Two Young Yanks in Europe
Wagner Nears Premier League Goal
THIS WEEK'S HEADLINES

RANDOM TAGS FROM PAST WEEK...
K League, Mikkel Diskerud, Ulsan Hyundai, Frosinone Calcio, Serie B, Andrija Novakovich, Italy, South Korea