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snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #31
Saturday September 5, 2015 3:17pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 878
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Why does everyone believe that MSL has to cap at 30ish teams? Why can't we expand beyond that if we have the talent for it. NFL teams don't play one another every year. You play VS. your division twice and vs another division. We could divide MLS up into 4 conferences etc. I am not saying I want to do anything like this but we should keep an open mind as long as we keep improving and the league is profitable.


We don't have the talent to field 30 teams and we're no where close. Half the teams in MLS are currently unwatchable.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #32
Saturday September 5, 2015 3:34pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 746
Original post from snipes87

We don't have the talent to field 30 teams and we're no where close. Half the teams in MLS are currently unwatchable.


I agree, clearly I was talking about the future

dolcem
Post #33
Sunday September 6, 2015 12:06am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
It has nothing to do with "copying the European model." It is in the MLS' best interests to have a salary cap, playoffs, and no pro/rel. That doesn't mean we should have more than 20 teams in the league. It makes no sense to have a league with 30 teams. A league needs to be as competitive as possible, both to keep the players there playing at the highest level and to attract foreign talent. If we want to convince foreign players that the MLS is a good move for them professionally, the league needs to be as competitive as possible. They aren't going to come to play in a watered down regional conference.
GET A CLUB TEAM
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #34
Sunday September 6, 2015 2:55pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 746
Original post from dolcem

It has nothing to do with "copying the European model." It is in the MLS' best interests to have a salary cap, playoffs, and no pro/rel. That doesn't mean we should have more than 20 teams in the league. It makes no sense to have a league with 30 teams. A league needs to be as competitive as possible, both to keep the players there playing at the highest level and to attract foreign talent. If we want to convince foreign players that the MLS is a good move for them professionally, the league needs to be as competitive as possible. They aren't going to come to play in a watered down regional conference.


You guys need to work on reading comprehension!
I simply said that if/when we have the talent we should be open minded and not limit ourselves to some arbitrary number of teams. If we have to talent to maintain competitiveness then there should not be a limit to the number of teams we can field in MLS. I also stated that we don't have to follow the European model of pro/rel etc. as everyone if fond of saying that we must adopt some day.

Mojofc
Post #35
Wednesday September 9, 2015 10:45pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Current results for a poll asking if MLS should adopt pro rel:

83% yes
17% no

Garber again comes out today and says not going to happen.

"It has become more of a seller's market. There is more interest in investing in MLS than there are teams available". Excellent, please turn away investment in the sport... That should help further the sport by excluding cities that want a team.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
TheTruth
Post #36
Wednesday September 9, 2015 11:37pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
It's a dumb question. The better question: Does MLS HAVE TO HAVE pro/rel to ultimately become an elite league? No.

Mojofc
Post #37
Wednesday September 9, 2015 11:48pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Original post from TheTruth

It's a dumb question. The better question: Does MLS HAVE TO HAVE pro/rel to ultimately become an elite league? No.


It's an interesting question, better question is do you believe pro/rel would help, hurt, or be neutral for the usmnt down the road. No chance soccer is going away in our culture so saying it's too risky at this point is bailing on the question.

Only reason MLS would fail with pro/rel is if... Well it can't. Clubs could fail but the league never could. No matter what happened... Teams gets promoted that wants it at the end of the season.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #38
Thursday September 10, 2015 2:54am

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 878
MLS doesn't need pro/rel to succeed. I don't think the American business dynamic would allow for it. Owners don't want to invest millions to end up out of MLS. It would have needed to be introduced from the beginning. I also think pro/rel keeps us away from the same teams always winning leagues, like in Europe. But that might end up happening anyway since certain teams get first dibs on designated players (Galaxy, Sounders, NY).
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
Mojofc
Post #39
Tuesday December 29, 2015 3:23pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
http://blog.3four3.com/2015/12/23/promotion-r...

Nice read from this guy..

----

Also Wynalda calling out our system on Twitter:

@EricWynalda: My opinion is that the current "professional climate" makes it impossible to have a performing chance-not JKs fault https://t.co/NDgfhBdHFB

@EricWynalda: Pick the team- win- that's the job-but if nobody else is doing theirs- lose- Our professional league is set up WRONG https://t.co/1pWq3AuiWJ

----

Mark Bosnich in Australia about lack of Pro/Rel. great short video... https://amp.twimg.com/v/ee67b14f-deeb-49be-a6...
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
Jzaval01
Post #40
Tuesday December 29, 2015 7:21pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,315
I always find it amusing when we talk pro and rel. What is it that we don't understand about it not being a possibility for now? Soccer isnt big enough to understand and co exist with that system again yet. Like Don Garber, the owners get the vote on whether there is pro and rel and if I am an owner i hell wouldnt want to spend 100 mil on a team getting relegated next season to USL for example. Owners choice is no for that very reason. All the leagues are still expanding from MLS to USL so new teams are still coming in new markets. Teams still are building their history and fanbases, today most MLS teams apart from a few wouldnt hold up well if they were to get relegated. Could be a risk of becoming a dead franchise and thats the last thing anyone wants a dead team. Saying all that Pro and Rel is something that will make american soccer that much more exciting and therefore it isnt impossible of ever happening. Sadly it just might not be in our life time because of he risk it holds. Which is why is pointless to demand pro and rel just wont happen any time soon

cleancutimage
Post #41
Tuesday December 29, 2015 7:33pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,283
Perfect! I was going to make a MLS vs. J-League tread but this will suffice. I am not anti-MLS at all but I think a league like J-League is superior to MLS despite being around the same age. I like how they have pro/rel(I know most of you are against it), also the atmosphere are much better. I think the quality of the league is much better. Why can't we have pro/rel if the J-League has it and they have been around as long as us? You know why? Because they embrace the game. If we had pro/rel our attendances would go from 18,000 for a team in MLS to around 5-6,000 for a second division team, I think owners fear that more than anything. So it is not about it not being a possibility, it is because we have too many casual, fairweather fans. Until we get more passionate, die-hard fans and less soccer moms and corporate people at the stadium, you are right it is not a possibility. We have enough soccer fans in this country that if they stopped supporting their motherland teams and embraced MLS, teams would do very well in attendance even if they got relegated. J-League is only a year or 2 older and is run like a South American or European league. I remember when they used to show J-League on FSW and Fox Soccer Channel, I was always impressed by the league and was even more surprised by how young the league was. It looked a lot more established and less Micky Mouse than MLS. I also hate the idea of so many teams in MLS.

I think only thing MLS has on J-League right now is the attendance but I would take a lively atmosphere with less fans than the quiet, mostly filled stadiums in MLS.

cleancutimage
Post #42
Tuesday December 29, 2015 8:35pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,283
Funny after I wrote this, I saw a tweet by the Whitecaps that they signed a Japanese player who did pretty well for himself in the J-League.

Mojofc
Post #43
Wednesday December 30, 2015 2:45am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Jvaz, the entire point of Pro/Rel is to end franchises and begin allowing clubs into the system . Also, USSoccer has some say in this although it would absolutely create a massive legal battle.

Also who wants to invest in soccer clubs with ceilings right above them? Only way up is to currently pay 100mil for promotion. With no risk of relegation we have stagnant franchises that care little about development, they just sit in a league accepting $ from people that want to take their families to a sporting event with little intent of competing. Change that risk level and you see teams begin investing in development.

Change for potential of promotion to D1 and you begin seeing investors in lower leagues spend $ in hopes of reaching D1-D3 in smaller-middle-large cities. What do we lose from this? It would breed fans that care about their local teams.

Clean, Ever consider that MLS's structure breeds casual fans? I've spoke about how casual of a league it is in the past for many reasons. One specific reason I don't follow MLS heavily is its casual manor. Not saying all fans are casual but the way they run the league pushes that image.

Anyways, I completely understand Pro/Rel may never happen but it's my ideal soccer culture for this country so I'll continue to hope that one day it becomes a possibility. It will only help our development and thus will only help the usmnt. Why not have that desire? Why be pro-monopoly in a country that claims to be free? Why allow MLS to run the show rather than ussoccer that should have the goal of making the usmnt better not fill the pockets of MLS owners? An MLS that's doing well is absolutely good for the usmnt but it also limits lower clubs potential which is where many potential players could be created. MLS limits investment below its floor.

Speaking of... Did the galaxy really just sell Gonzo & Junihno to clear some cap room and are looking at Cashley Cole right now?
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
cleancutimage
Post #44
Wednesday December 30, 2015 3:31am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,283
Original post from Mojofc

Jvaz, the entire point of Pro/Rel is to end franchises and begin allowing clubs into the system . Also, USSoccer has some say in this although it would absolutely create a massive legal battle.

Also who wants to invest in soccer clubs with ceilings right above them? Only way up is to currently pay 100mil for promotion. With no risk of relegation we have stagnant franchises that care little about development, they just sit in a league accepting $ from people that want to take their families to a sporting event with little intent of competing. Change that risk level and you see teams begin investing in development.

Change for potential of promotion to D1 and you begin seeing investors in lower leagues spend $ in hopes of reaching D1-D3 in smaller-middle-large cities. What do we lose from this? It would breed fans that care about their local teams.

Clean, Ever consider that MLS's structure breeds casual fans? I've spoke about how casual of a league it is in the past for many reasons. One specific reason I don't follow MLS heavily is its casual manor. Not saying all fans are casual but the way they run the league pushes that image.

Anyways, I completely understand Pro/Rel may never happen but it's my ideal soccer culture for this country so I'll continue to hope that one day it becomes a possibility. It will only help our development and thus will only help the usmnt. Why not have that desire? Why be pro-monopoly in a country that claims to be free? Why allow MLS to run the show rather than ussoccer that should have the goal of making the usmnt better not fill the pockets of MLS owners? An MLS that's doing well is absolutely good for the usmnt but it also limits lower clubs potential which is where many potential players could be created. MLS limits investment below its floor.

Speaking of... Did the galaxy really just sell Gonzo & Junihno to clear some cap room and are looking at Cashley Cole right now?


I know MLS breeds casual fans because it is still very Mickey Mouse-leaguish in ways. That is why so many people follow other leagues instead. I follow EPL probably just as much as MLS and was an Arsenal fan before being a fan of any team in MLS(Became a NYRB fan when Henry joined and Seattle Sounders fan once they joined the league since I was raised in Seattle and cheer for anything Seattle).

I know people have disagreed with me but I think the playoffs are lame. I think having so many teams in the league is lame. I think playing on turf is lame. I think playing in NFL and not your own stadiums is lame. I think those steel frame seats just yard from the touchline is lame. I think the league being so restrictive is lame. That is all nit-picky stuff but not too much I like in MLS other than it being the top American league.

In the future, the USMNT will go as the MLS games more than ever because smaller countries are becoming more competitive and leagues are breeding more talent. If MLS continues to grow, get top players at prime ages and develops a world class atmosphere I think the USMNT will only benefit from these things among others but if MLS continues to grow the franchises without having the money to bring in the talent for the amount of teams then the national team will suffer. You cannot grow the league so rapidly but be so frugal when raising the salary cap. I am sorry but the days of the Superdraft and college kids should be a thing of the past.

Jzaval01
Post #45
Wednesday December 30, 2015 4:05am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,315
Original post from Mojofc

Jvaz, the entire point of Pro/Rel is to end franchises and begin allowing clubs into the system . Also, USSoccer has some say in this although it would absolutely create a massive legal battle.

Also who wants to invest in soccer clubs with ceilings right above them? Only way up is to currently pay 100mil for promotion. With no risk of relegation we have stagnant franchises that care little about development, they just sit in a league accepting $ from people that want to take their families to a sporting event with little intent of competing. Change that risk level and you see teams begin investing in development.

Change for potential of promotion to D1 and you begin seeing investors in lower leagues spend $ in hopes of reaching D1-D3 in smaller-middle-large cities. What do we lose from this? It would breed fans that care about their local teams.

Clean, Ever consider that MLS's structure breeds casual fans? I've spoke about how casual of a league it is in the past for many reasons. One specific reason I don't follow MLS heavily is its casual manor. Not saying all fans are casual but the way they run the league pushes that image.

Anyways, I completely understand Pro/Rel may never happen but it's my ideal soccer culture for this country so I'll continue to hope that one day it becomes a possibility. It will only help our development and thus will only help the usmnt. Why not have that desire? Why be pro-monopoly in a country that claims to be free? Why allow MLS to run the show rather than ussoccer that should have the goal of making the usmnt better not fill the pockets of MLS owners? An MLS that's doing well is absolutely good for the usmnt but it also limits lower clubs potential which is where many potential players could be created. MLS limits investment below its floor.

Speaking of... Did the galaxy really just sell Gonzo & Junihno to clear some cap room and are looking at Cashley Cole right now?


Yes and and all you mention the risks is why there wont be that rel/pro for a good amount of years. Its foreign and like clean stated we dont embrace the game enough to allow owners to take such a massive risk. Would i want pro / rel + MLS playoffs yea of course, personally im not against that but its no realistic. Just look at other american sports doesnt exist either. Instead of focusing on something pretty impossible we should focus on stadium, player developments. Things that will guarantee to improve MLS and USMNT. Not sure we can guarantee that pro / rel will improve MLS or USMNT, it will make our league that bit more exiting.

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