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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #16
Friday September 4, 2015 6:44pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from MSantoine

I would disagree with this. MLS has been getting better exponentially the last 5-10 years. The US team has not. As more youth players are able to join euro club reserves then the strength of MLS has less impact on the strength of USNT


But the reason the MLS has gotten better exponentially recently the last 5-10 years is because of allowing more and more high priced Foreigners to come into the MLS.

The next step is to continue to build the youth academy. What's going to up the MLS' game from here on out is not continuing to spend money on big players. But for the MLS to take the next step the rest of the roster has to get better not just the top 2-3 players on the team. That is going to come through the Youth academies and building of younger players. Which is going to primarily be American's (as well as Mexicans, Canadians, Caribbean islanders and central americans).

So as the MLS continues to get better from the ground up, the USMNT will get better.

So yes the MLS has gotten better exponentially, but their ground up growth (which is going to be the part that is LASTING) has not. It has gotten better and grown a lot, but not exponentially and at about the same rate that the USMNT has grown.

As our youth academies grow and get better you'll also see more and more going overseas as they are more developed.
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Mojofc
Post #17
Friday September 4, 2015 6:50pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Problem is we're relying on an nfl strategy to create superstars.

NFL players are formed in college. They have all their work done for them.

Having 20 D1 soccer teams as the only 'actual' teams in the country is a horrible strategy for long term success for the usmnt. It's perfect for MLS. It's perfect for MLS owners.

I again get the negatives of pro/rel but it's why other countries have so many teams that invest not just $ but also serious efforts to create top players, because they hope to one day gain promotion to not just D1, but perhaps even D3. When all leagues are closed it doesn't create the same spark and desire.

La Liga doesn't create players because they have a solid D1, it's also because their D2 on down strive for future success and possible promotion. They train up top talent and the best of the bunch ends up being sold to D1. Here we hope college does this for us and only a handful of MLS academies.

Just a weak recipe for long term success.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
hamsamwich
Post #18
Friday September 4, 2015 8:18pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
Great post Mojo.

dolcem
Post #19
Friday September 4, 2015 8:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

Not bogus at all. Last I looked 2002 happened and that team outplayed a German squad comprised from the Bundesliga.

That team started 4 MLS players, and brought in Clint Mathis and Josh Wolf as subs.


Sample size.

You can always find one game to try to prove your point. Upsets happen. In 1966 North Korea beat Italy with a group of players who played for the North Korean army team and rarely played outside the country. Heck North Korea played respectably in 2010.

But these are outliers. The reality is that almost all of the time, only teams comprised of players playing at the highest levels do well. Back in the day, this included the Argentine and Brazilian leagues, but not so much anymore. The only national teams that you can count on to consistently do well are those almost exclusively comprised of players in the top five leagues.

No one in Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Portugal, Belgium, etc. even has this debate. They all understand that no matter how great they are as footballing cultures, they need their players playing in the top leagues if they want their national teams to be successful. No one in these countries is claiming they should field a NT of domestic players or that the solution is for all of their NT players to come home. They understand that that would seriously hurt their national team. In the US, though, rich MLS owners are able to buy the best American players (with hugely inflated salaries) and it is severely detrimental to our NT.
GET A CLUB TEAM
snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #20
Friday September 4, 2015 9:23pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 893
Original post from 2tone

Not bogus at all. Last I looked 2002 happened and that team outplayed a German squad comprised from the Bundesliga.

That team started 4 MLS players, and brought in Clint Mathis and Josh Wolf as subs.


Last I checked Germany won that game, Bubba. So Italy did poorly in 2014 but most of their players were from their domestic league. So what's the issue there? And how many of our players that year make the Italian 23 in 2014 (not counting goalies)? 2 at most. Leagues guys play in have nothing to do with national team success. Individual talent playing together the best for that given month during a WC does. So your argument is bogus.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
TheTruth
Post #21
Friday September 4, 2015 10:39pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
We got to the quarterfinals, you nitwits. You need a series of good results to even get to that point. That's not an outlier. Some of you guys are approaching adms logic.

I still can't understand how people have not watched MLS over the last 20 years and seen dramatic improvement. And, no, MLS didn't just start getting 'exponentially' better 8 years ago after Beckham arrived. What's all the bitching for? It's an incredible sports league success story.

Do you guys seriously think MLS won't continue to improve? We have 300 million people who live here. We're the richest country in the world. Youth development is so much better today than it was 20 years ago it's not even recognizable.

Spank
661
Post #22
Friday September 4, 2015 10:49pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 132
I don't think anyone is questioning the growth of MLS. All posts above are an attempt to discredit 2tone's belief that all our NT players in MLS is "just fine". Look, i have no problem with MLS but you gotta be delusional to think that a team fielding all MLS players actually has a chance to win a big tournament.

Yes, i've heard the argument about a nation like England that has all their players in the top 5 leagues but fails every time. Me, personally, i'd rather have a team like England that has the potential to win a WC or the Euros and fails rather than a team made up of MLSers that overachieves but will NEVER win a WC or any major tournament.

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #23
Friday September 4, 2015 10:58pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 893
Original post from Spank

I don't think anyone is questioning the growth of MLS. All posts above are an attempt to discredit 2tone's belief that all our NT players in MLS is "just fine". Look, i have no problem with MLS but you gotta be delusional to think that a team fielding all MLS players actually has a chance to win a big tournament.

Yes, i've heard the argument about a nation like England that has all their players in the top 5 leagues but fails every time. Me, personally, i'd rather have a team like England that has the potential to win a WC or the Euros and fails rather than a team made up of MLSers that overachieves but will NEVER win a WC or any major tournament.


There is a God. Thank you Spank
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
TheTruth
Post #24
Friday September 4, 2015 11:02pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
Well, you're making some exaggerations there about USMNT being ALL MLS players. There will always be USMNT players who play all over the world. As MLS continues to get better I get closer to being "just fine" w/ most guys on the USMNT playing in MLS.

If current trajectory holds, MLS will be, whaddya think, as good as Eredivisie in 15 years? And guys, keep in mind that England is 40 miles away from Netherlands, but 6,000 miles away from California.

Mojofc
Post #25
Friday September 4, 2015 11:07pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Original post from TheTruth

We got to the quarterfinals, you nitwits. You need a series of good results to even get to that point. That's not an outlier. Some of you guys are approaching adms logic.

I still can't understand how people have not watched MLS over the last 20 years and seen dramatic improvement. And, no, MLS didn't just start getting 'exponentially' better 8 years ago after Beckham arrived. What's all the bitching for? It's an incredible sports league success story.

Do you guys seriously think MLS won't continue to improve? We have 300 million people who live here. We're the richest country in the world. Youth development is so much better today than it was 20 years ago it's not even recognizable.


I know this isn't directed towards me exactly but..

Once MLS hits 30~ teams what happens from there? Do we rely on USL? Do we continue to rely on colleges? Do we rely on NASL? If these all are dead end divisions, the investment will never be there.

MLS has got us to where we are today and I get this isn't possible... But imagine ussoccer telling all cities across the USA that 5 years from now the top 5-6 teams in each region will be allowed D1 status and will begin table format style D1 with pro/rel. Would we see more or less grass roots style soccer? Would we hear about soccer more or less in espn? Would you be more or less likely to go watch your very own 'club' (not franchise).

I get this is a dream world and MLS wouldn't ever allow it to happen and fully understand the reasoning why.

Let's just say it did happen, 30 years from now would ussoccer and the usmnt be better off because of it or be better off having MLS limiting lower divisions the chance to ever compete?

Call me crazy...
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
TheTruth
Post #26
Friday September 4, 2015 11:23pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
Don't know about any of that stuff. But, yes, any incumbent MLS owner hates the idea of pro/rel.
A lot of interesting dynamics going here (eg, MLS has global competition that NFL, etc. do not have).

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #27
Friday September 4, 2015 11:33pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,445
Outlier? No it isn't an outlier to make the knockout rounds 3 out of the last 4 WC's. They also have made it to the CONFED cup final in that time frame.

I have never stated all of the USMNT should be comprised of MLS players.

Is Brazil better today with having most of their players playing in European leagues? I would argue that they aren't. They don't have a defined style of play and they look disjointed quite a bit.

There has never been a complete USMNT comprised of MLS players. There hasn't been a complete starting 11 with just MLS player, so it's hard to say how a team like that would fare on the big stage.

Argentina hasn't won a major senior tournamnet since the mid 90's.

Yes Germany won that game, but we all know the U.S. was the better team in that game.

MLS is still growing and getting better.

What I do know is the last three WC winners were made up of mostly domestic players. Yes they came from big teams in Europe, but is that the reason? Or is it because those players are so familiar with eachother because they play with and against eachother all of the time?

My opinion of English players is that they are primadonnas because they play in the EPL.

admsghs27
Post #28
Saturday September 5, 2015 12:24am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Germany Robbed USA in 2002. Should of been a Red and PK either way the ball had crossed the line. Had that happened USA would of steam rolled over them specially if they went OT.

dolcem
Post #29
Saturday September 5, 2015 5:17am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Come on guys, no one is knocking on the MLS. But there are a few simple facts here and people are trying to change the subject.

It is a fact that the better league you play in, the better you become as a player and the better form it keeps you in.

It is a fact that the only national teams that do serious damage in tournaments have players playing in the top leagues.

Trying to use the '02 US team as evidence that it doesn't matter what leagues your players play in is ridiculous (not to mention that it's contradictory because the argument is that the players need to all play in the same league, and that team had guys playing all over the place). It is an outlier. A handful of good performances (3-4 games) is a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of professional and international matches that have shown time and time again that in order to be the best, you have to play with the best. This isn't gridiron, a player in soccer is much more limited by his teammates and the system in which he plays.

While 2tone may be right that the Argentine and Brazilian national teams are in decline because the players all play different styles and in different leagues, the solution is not for all of them to come home. No one in Argentina or Brazil thinks that these national teams would be better off if those players were playing in South America. They know that though it's sad, in the 21st century the only way to have a serious national team is by sending your best to the top five leagues.

A lot of people are excited about the fact that the MLS is starting to buy our best NT players in their prime, but this isn't going to somehow make us play better as a team. Bradley and Altidore aren't going to suddenly understand their teammates better by taking a step backwards, and, surprise, Bradley just hasn't been the same player since returning to the states. All that will happen is that the won't be quite as in form as they would be playing in a top European league and that they'll be more likely to struggle to adjust to the much higher-paced international matches.
GET A CLUB TEAM
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #30
Saturday September 5, 2015 2:18pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 867
I don't know why everyone feels we have to follow the European model. Is there some reason we can't find our own way to do things? The European model is always going to be in our back pocket if doing things differently doesn't work out.

MLS talent has steadily increased year by year across the board, not just with the addition of DP's. I would argue the addition of DP's has greatly accelerated the talent level of all the other players. I know everyone wants worldwide respect as a footballing nation but it is going to take time. MLS is just starting to get recognition overseas and good young players now want to play here. Things will continue to improve. Our next generation looks better than our current one and the following generation looks even better. I am not sure what miracles everyone is expecting but MLS and the national team are making progress. The lower levels of soccer are being assembled, look at the improvement in the last 5 years.

Why does everyone believe that MSL has to cap at 30ish teams? Why can't we expand beyond that if we have the talent for it. NFL teams don't play one another every year. You play VS. your division twice and vs another division. We could divide MLS up into 4 conferences etc. I am not saying I want to do anything like this but we should keep an open mind as long as we keep improving and the league is profitable.

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