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Mojofc
Post #31
Monday May 25, 2015 12:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Adamsmhahsh, what you posted is pretty much exactly what dolcem said, people don't understand the table format and require the excitement of the playoffs for some reason in this country. Id assume for the most part people that are anti table didn't grow up on European soccer or to some degree they grew up on American sports before looking to soccer perhaps because it wasn't much of an option on tv.

Rain, .... Why post that article? Only to show that there are some phases of playoffs in europe? He's talking about the top leagues in the world and how they show the champion. He's not talking about promotion spots. I'd assume it's not necessary to post some promotion spots are earned via playoffs because id hope everyone on here knows that by now unless you're completely new to the sport. I'll tell you one thing about that spot though.... 50% of the teams in the league don't get to enter the playoffs to fight for that promotion spot because at that point what was the point of the season in the first place...
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
hamsamwich
Post #32
Monday May 25, 2015 2:29pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
Chris Wondolowski - 100 MLS goals.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #33
Monday May 25, 2015 10:07pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,516
Yep - and still going. I think he has a legit shot to surpass LD. He's a fitness nut and his game was never based on speed or athleticism. With Kinnear in charge and the Quakes on the upswing, hopefully he'll continue to get a lot of opportunities.

skangles
DC
Post #34
Tuesday May 26, 2015 12:25am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,439
It's brilliant that Wondo got his 100th in his first opportunity. Landon got stuck in a rut when he had the chance to set the MLS record and Wondo won't have to worry about that. Now Wondo can relax and just keep scoring goals without having to hear about whether or not he'll score his 100th every week.

hamsamwich
Post #35
Tuesday May 26, 2015 1:21am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,203
Guys a machine- in a good way. The reason he always gets called up is because he can be counted on to always make that run, always close down. Predictability is good for a coach, so he will keep playing.

In other MLS observations-
1. The revs look like they are about to run away with the Eastern conference.

2. Red bulls are better than some of us thought but they have room to regress.

3. Watch out for a strong midseason run from my Fire- Mike Magee will return in the next week or so- Maloney and Accam have settled and Kennedy is starting to get it too. Magee gives us that poacher the team needs as we create lots of chances.

4. The west is still the best. SKC has improved an already deep division.

dolcem
Post #36
Tuesday May 26, 2015 1:59am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from rainORshine

not using "the daily mail" - im using one british dude.

"When I explain to my fellow countrymen the system the rest of the world uses..." -dolcem

do you really need more "proof" that play-offs exist outside of the US?

you dont think there is "proof" that some europeans like both the idea of play-offs as well as the play-offs THEY ALREADY HAVE? they are ALL "perplexed" because they are not even familiar with the concept of play-offs?

id ask if you are still laughing, but obviously you are. just laughing and laughing. glad i could entertain you so much


It is obvious to any reader that "perplexed" in that sentence referred to their confusion at why we use playoffs (to crown a single champion), not because they don't understand how they work. One would have to be mentally challenged to not understand how an elimination tournament works, especially because they exist in most soccer leagues (called cups). Everyone understood this. Your post is a strawman argument.

Yes, the Championship uses a playoff to determine who gets the 3rd promotion spot to the Premiership. But no important soccer league uses American-style playoffs to crown an undisputed champion (aside from Liga MX, for reasons explained above). That is what I wrote in my post, and everyone understood it as such.

Your one op-ed does not prove that Europeans would like American style playoffs. As an expat who spent years trying to convince Europeans that our system is better, I have never met a single one who liked the idea. It will never happen. If a major soccer league adopts American style playoffs, I will publicly shame myself. Until then, don't act like it's a popular idea just because of one article you found.
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dolcem
Post #37
Tuesday May 26, 2015 2:30am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from admsghs27

Europe is a freaking joke league wise... We all know who will win the title every year.. easily 2-5 clubs every year in the top leagues in Europe every year... Boooooring!!!!! As for the whole Western Hemisphere AKA America playoffs are the best.... Just imagine if the regular season ended by having a champion for best record... Wow so many new champions in NFL and NBA and MLB etc....


Parity is due to the salary cap, not the playoffs. While playoffs make sense in the context of the franchise system and salary cap (from a marketing standpoint), they aren't necessary for parity. My dream for the NFL would be to add two teams and split it into West and East with 17 teams each and a single table format (8 home games, 8 away, alternating every season), with the champion of each conference playing in the Super Bowl. (A more realistic alternative would be having the top six qualify for the playoffs). It'd never happen, but if it did, there would be the same variety champions as there are under the current format, with the only difference being the winners would be more legitimate.

And anyway, the lack of parity in the European leagues makes sense for the reasons listed in one of my earlier posts...these are small countries that can't support 30 teams of equal stature the way we do in the US. The globalization of the game has made things a lot worse but that's the reality of having such a global sport. The American sports leagues don't have to deal with these issues because they will always be the best.
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MSantoine
Post #38
Tuesday May 26, 2015 2:56am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
More evidence that pro/rel will never happen. Ligue 1 is reducing the amount of relegated teams. They stated financial stability for owners as the main reason. I wouldn't be surprised if more leagues go this route. Germany already kind of does this. The more new owners that come in and replace silver spoon owners who were given teams from there dads the more pro/rel will start to fade.

tylercocinas
Post #39
Tuesday May 26, 2015 4:39am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
Original post from MSantoine

More evidence that pro/rel will never happen. Ligue 1 is reducing the amount of relegated teams. They stated financial stability for owners as the main reason. I wouldn't be surprised if more leagues go this route. Germany already kind of does this. The more new owners that come in and replace silver spoon owners who were given teams from there dads the more pro/rel will start to fade.


How does your assertion regarding owners having "silver spoons" and inheriting clubs have anything to do with promotion and relegation? People who inherit clubs can be relegated in the same way new owners can, and theoretically would have the same incentive to protect their investment. The promotion/relegation system is an opportunity for all clubs to have access to the top flight based on merit. Lately things have become skewed as a result of the lack of a salary cap but the idea itself is one that does serve a purpose in my opinion.

MSantoine
Post #40
Tuesday May 26, 2015 12:34pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from tylercocinas

How does your assertion regarding owners having "silver spoons" and inheriting clubs have anything to do with promotion and relegation? People who inherit clubs can be relegated in the same way new owners can, and theoretically would have the same incentive to protect their investment. The promotion/relegation system is an opportunity for all clubs to have access to the top flight based on merit. Lately things have become skewed as a result of the lack of a salary cap but the idea itself is one that does serve a purpose in my opinion.


Just that in the sense that a new billion dollar owner is going to be much more against relegation then someone who's family has been part of the system of pro/rel for 40, 50, 60 years. Those owners are used to pro/rel and are more or less ok with it since thats normal for them. As these new owners come in they prefer more assurances that they won't come in and throw away a lot of money. I think some leagues also want to prevent the possibility of what Red Cull did in Germany and buy regional teams/lowest division teams on the cheap and gradually spend money to buy their way to the top divisions. Less pro/rel spots makes that harder to do.

Mojofc
Post #41
Tuesday May 26, 2015 5:10pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Problem is ending pro/rel would be the death of all too many teams with history.

Newcastle was down a few years ago, Leeds is still down but had a tremendous history.

How do you just go and tell these teams they're permanently banned from D1? It can't and won't happen imo.

Making it more or less spots for pro/rel is one thing but removing it is littered with issues.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
dolcem
Post #42
Wednesday May 27, 2015 6:18am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
I think the best system is what Argentina uses: three year averages. That way you don't relegate a good team for just having one bad season (Villarreal, for example). More importantly, it makes every game count. In any other league, once a team has mathematically avoided relegation, there's not much left for them to play for if they're out of reach for qualifying for continental tournaments. In contrast, with the three year average system, every game of every season matters because it counts towards the average. There are no meaningless games.

The other cool thing Argentina used to have was playoffs between relegated and promoted teams. The bottom two from the Primera and top two from the B (second division) would be relegated and promoted, respectively, but the third and fourth worst Primera teams would play the third and fourth best from the B, with the winners playing in the Primera and losers in the B. I like the idea of having to beat the team whose spot you're trying to take if you want to get promoted.
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skangles
DC
Post #43
Wednesday May 27, 2015 12:38pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,439
With respect to playoff systems, I am really enjoying the Scottish playoffs this year. It adds a lot of late season drama.

Basically the bottom team in the Premiership goes down and the top team in the Championship goes up. Straight forward but then they added a complex playoff gauntlet whereby the fourth team in the Championship plays the third team in a home and home with the winner then playing the second team in a home and home and the winner of that series taking on the second worst Premiership team in a home and home.

This year Rangers (3rd) beat Queen of the South (4th). Rangers then beat Hibs (2nd) and will face Motherwell (11th Prem) in a home and home starting tomorrow.

MSantoine
Post #44
Wednesday May 27, 2015 1:12pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from skangles

With respect to playoff systems, I am really enjoying the Scottish playoffs this year. It adds a lot of late season drama.

Basically the bottom team in the Premiership goes down and the top team in the Championship goes up. Straight forward but then they added a complex playoff gauntlet whereby the fourth team in the Championship plays the third team in a home and home with the winner then playing the second team in a home and home and the winner of that series taking on the second worst Premiership team in a home and home.

This year Rangers (3rd) beat Queen of the South (4th). Rangers then beat Hibs (2nd) and will face Motherwell (11th Prem) in a home and home starting tomorrow.


I believe Norway does something like this too. Dont know the exacts but something like top 2nd division is auto promoted and bottom Tippleagen is relegated. Then the next 6 2nd division teams or something do the home and home playoffs where like 2nd & 3rd get byes while 4/7 & 5/6 do the head-head thing. Then 2/3 play those winners, then the final winner plays the 17th place tipppleagen team. Something like that but again it makes you have to really earn the promotion.

I think in Europe I like having the 1st place team and last place team always get the auto pro/rel but let the rest have playoffs to have to earn their place.

Mojofc
Post #45
Wednesday May 27, 2015 2:34pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Problem with that is that it makes the D1 teams more likely to win as they set up their season based on playing in D1 not D2.

Once a team earns promotion they can spend more in the summer knowing that will be in D1 next season. Not sure it's fair to ask D2 teams to begin planning their strategy before season to be able to compete with a D1 team I hopes they enter a playoff.

I get both sides but to assume a D2 team isn't as good as a D1 team because of a short playoff isn't fair. Most D2 teams that earn promotion at that time begin to invest in hopes to stay up, they shouldn't have to invest before their D2 season begins.

More or less would make D1 teams even more likely to forever stay up.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
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