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rainORshine
Post #16
Saturday May 23, 2015 7:31am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
this does not have to be an either/or discussion. single table pro/rel has its perks and obviously most people enjoy playoffs. if top leagues in europe created a 4 team play-off purists would whine and EVERYONE, including the purists, would be watching. its not tricky to figure out - people want to watch the best teams play each other in games that really matter

personally, ive grown a little bored with EPL recently. how many mostly meaningless chelsea/arsenal or man u/man city or merseyside derbys can a neutral non-british fan watch?... ultimately every game is 1 of 38 and individually not that important in determining a winner

the best system would be a combo of both, relegation with playoffs -- which several 'smaller' euro countries as well as other countries around the world do (like mexico)

as was stated above there is an absolute value to relegation - it means supporters of worst teams are coming out in droves with the same intensity as a playoff-type matches because staying in top tier is as good as winning a cup. there is nothing worse in US sports than a game in 2nd half of season in any league between 2 loser teams - 2 bad teams and zero atmosphere/enthusiasm... which is why US leagues have to keep expanding play-offs - so mediocre teams can make it and fans have a reason to care

in a 24 team league i think the best scenario would be 10 playoff teams (max) and 2 automatic relegation and 1 pro/rel play-off

something like that

Mojofc
Post #17
Saturday May 23, 2015 4:58pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Not a bad post rain.

I honestly just don't see how Pro/Rel isn't the only option in the USA if the sport grows like we hope it does.

If it grows like we hope it does in 20 years how do we disallow teams in Charlotte, St. Louis, 2nd teams in any large city across the USA, etc. How will we cap the league at a certain amount and limit other leagues, teams to make the jump if they're willing the invest in player development?

MLS 1 MLS 2 leagues would be silly and would only benefit owners, one day the league will have to open up in order for the sport to maximize growth in this country which then allows more top players to see better coaching from the ground level on up.

Not saying it should be done now but how else does the league accommodate future cities that very much deserve teams?
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
dolcem
Post #18
Saturday May 23, 2015 7:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
The playoffs are a marketing gimmick that makes sense in the context of the franchise system without promotion/relegation or qualification for continental tournaments. With neither of these to play for, most teams all season would have literally no incentive to win...only the top few teams fighting for the title would. The playoffs, particularly if many teams are allowed in, means that most teams have something to play for for most of the season. The other benefit is that casual fans are much more easily able to follow the sport. Who is going to take the time to watch 162 or 82 games when they can just tune in for a few at the end of the season?

Playoffs, however, are not an effective means to measuring a champion. Those of us used to American sports may think so, but this is not the case (unless of course we're referring to a geographically massive area with many regional leagues, such as is the case with collegiate sports). They only measure who is playing best at the end of the season. No one brought on a single-table system is willing to watch their team be the best over the course of a 38 game season only to see another team crowned champion because of a blown penalty call, injuries, or sudden change of form in a playoff game after the end of the season.

The argument that Americans usually use when trying to explain the playoff system to perplexed Europeans is "you have to win when it counts." But in soccer, this exists in the form of cups. It is true that a tournament format, besides being very exciting and easily watchable for the casual fan, rewards a different type of team than the single table format. A team with the best starting eleven that can beat the other great teams when everything is on the line is more likely to win a tournament, while a team with a lot of depth and consistency is more likely to win a single table league. Both types of teams can be great in their own right and both deserve a chance at demonstrating this by winning silverware. And of course the truly great teams win everything.

Americans don't like this, however, because it's too complicated. When I explain to my fellow countrymen the system the rest of the world uses, they don't like it. "But who's the one champion?" they ask, visibly annoyed. They don't want there to be any doubt of who is deemed the "best" at the end of the year. And while it is true that there is less certainty under this format than in the American system, that's how things are in real life. One team may be better consistently throughout the course of a long season, while another might be better "when it counts." Who is to judge which team is actually better? Americans only reward the latter, while in other countries, both can prove their own merits. And what makes this system better is that a team can truly prove its greatness by winning multiple trophies, something impossible in the American system. There is nothing to differentiate the '95 49ers from the '10 Packers. In soccer, however, we all can definitely measure the greatness of '09 or '11 Barcelona teams because they won everything.

The playoffs are a necessary evil for the American system but if we every do decide to move towards a single-table, pro/rel format, it would be foolish to retain them.
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Mojofc
Post #19
Sunday May 24, 2015 6:55pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Any thoughts to the anti Pro/Rel people out there on the past 3 posts?

Are you a permanent anti pro/rel or do you understand pro/rel allows for more teams in the country in the future allowing for the increase in ability for the usmnt to increase their quality?

NFL, NBA, MLB, all have outlets for youth to progress without professional coaching. Soccer on the other hand doesn't offer this.

NFL players could have began playing the sport in high school. Soccer you have to start as early as possible and everything must go right to progress to the professional level. Having only 24-30 teams across the nation allowed to play at D1 level will limit soccer in the future if the sport progresses. Yes I know there is NASL and USL. It's not the same when investment in those leagues will forever be limited due to them not being allowed to be D1.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
blaise213
Post #20
Sunday May 24, 2015 9:26pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,987
I'll be at the smurf quakes game at Levi's Stadium

Hopefully that game is not a bust seeing all the tickets still available! The $125 I paid for each is a rip off!

dolcem
Post #21
Sunday May 24, 2015 9:37pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from Mojofc

Any thoughts to the anti Pro/Rel people out there on the past 3 posts?

Are you a permanent anti pro/rel or do you understand pro/rel allows for more teams in the country in the future allowing for the increase in ability for the usmnt to increase their quality?

NFL, NBA, MLB, all have outlets for youth to progress without professional coaching. Soccer on the other hand doesn't offer this.

NFL players could have began playing the sport in high school. Soccer you have to start as early as possible and everything must go right to progress to the professional level. Having only 24-30 teams across the nation allowed to play at D1 level will limit soccer in the future if the sport progresses. Yes I know there is NASL and USL. It's not the same when investment in those leagues will forever be limited due to them not being allowed to be D1.


Of course in an ideal world we would have single-table, pro/rel. But it's just not realistic in the US. Americans do not tune in on TV to watch "minor league" sports. In fact, the only minor league teams that get any support at all are from smaller cities far away from pro teams. If the Chicago Fire get relegated, no one will choose to watch the Fire play minor league soccer over the Bulls, Sox, Cubs, Bears, or Blackhawks. The fair weather fans will get completely turned off for years because there are no other MLS teams in the area (until the Fire get promoted and turn into a title contender), and the MLS will lose a massive market in favor of, say, the Dayton Dutch Lions. Neutrals as well are much more likely to tune in on TV to a Fire play the Galaxy than they would be to watch the Dutch Lions play the Aztex. The owners know this and there is no way they will seriously invest in a team that can get relegated after one bad season. And perhaps most importantly, pro/rel is totally incompatible with the salary cap, which works well for American sports (and is totally necessary for a new one like soccer).

Don't get me wrong, I think playoffs are incredibly lame (reasons listed above), but the American franchise system is the only thing that will work in the US.
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TheTruth
Post #22
Sunday May 24, 2015 9:56pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
It's just hard to imagine a sports league moving to pro/rel if they aren't already there. I can't see any owner voting for it. Move along. Nothing to see here.

rainORshine
Post #23
Monday May 25, 2015 6:53am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
playoffs are not american - many leagues around world INCLUDING EUROPE have playoffs

dolcems post really need a warning that says that 90% of what he says is utter bullshit

here is an article in london daily mail from LAST WEEK...

"Premier League needs play-offs to decide who will be champions

By Adrian Durham for MailOnline

Published: 01:33 EST, 12 May 2015 | Updated: 07:14 EST, 12 May 2015

What a weekend of football I've had: on Friday night I watched one of the best games I've seen this season as Middlesbrough won 2-1 at Brentford in the Championship play-off semi-final first leg.

On Saturday I went to Newcastle to watch them draw 1-1 with West Brom in the Barclays Premier League - decent enough but fairly tame.

Sunday, I was at Stevenage's thunderous no-holds-barred bloodfest with Southend in the League Two play-offs. You will not have seen two more committed sides this season.
Arsenal's defeat by Swansea City at the Emirates was a drab ending to a weekend of exciting football
The Premier League has suffered because many of the important battles in the table have been decided

Meanwhile, Swindon and Sheffield United fought out a brilliant 5-5 draw with the Robins winning on aggregate

And then on Monday I went to the Emirates to watch Arsenal face Swansea in a drab, lifeless affair.

It reinforced my long-held belief that the Premier League needs play-offs.

The title race was done and dusted with three games to go. The Champions League spots have been pencilled in for some time now. And two of the three relegation places were virtually assured a month before the end of the season.

I still love the English top flight, and some of the football is brilliant. But the end-to-end excitement at Griffin Park, Ipswich and Norwich drawing 1-1 at Portman Road and then the unbelievable, ridiculous 5-5 draw between Swindon and Sheffield United on Monday night, were much more exciting.

So why can't football go down the same route as rugby union and rugby league? At the end of the regular 38-game Premier League season you crown the minor champions. You then have a four-team play-off culminating in a massive match at Wembley to decide the Grand Final winners.

I can hear the traditionalists lacing up their brown leather balls as they read this and saying the idea is preposterous. It's what they said about sponsors' names on shirts in the 1970s. It's what they said about having substitutes in the 1960s. It's what they said about footballers earning a living wage form the game in the dark ages. It's what they said when the Football League play-offs were first introduced in the 1980s.
Fans invade the pitch at Swindon after the game, but why do we not have Premier League play-offs too?

Fans invade the pitch at Swindon after the game, but why do we not have Premier League play-offs too?
Chelsea have already wrapped up the Premier League title but with play-offs it would not be decided yet
Liverpool could have had a shot at taking the title off Chelsea in a new play-off system, instead they are done

In 2002 when the RFU announced the new play-off system to determine the champions there was outrage. But now you won't find many who want to get rid of the Twickenham showpiece final which regularly attracts over 80,000 fans.

From a financial point of view it makes total sense.

From a fans' point of view, who wouldn't love a massive one-off match at Wembley to decide the champions of England?

But is it sporting? Is it right that after 38 games, at the end of a long, hard season, you have to then go through more hoops to earn the right to be called champions of England?
The Championship play-off final is already a brilliant spectacle and the Premier League could beat that

The Twickenham showpiece final for the Aviva Premiership shows the way the Premier League could do it

Well I think it is and here's why.

A 38-game season is a huge test for a manager and his players. But it means you can have a strategy - it means you can rest players here and there, it means you can be negative when you want to be. It means avoiding defeat sometimes becomes the target.

So have a league season of course. But tag on to the end of it a cup competition and you have a true test of a squad of players and a manager. Can they handle the challenge of a nine-month season? And then can they 'go again' and handle the pressure of the play-offs for the ultimate reward?

John Terry and Chelsea have found it far too easy this season, the Premier League needs a shake-up

It would give Arsenal and possibly even Liverpool some hope of winning a title ever again I suppose.

Champions decided by end-of-season play-offs might scare a few people. But the excitement generated by those games would be electric. Look at the Championship play-off final - a stunning fixture on the calendar.

Throw in play-offs for Champions League places and maybe even relegation, and all of a sudden there's plenty to play for every week.

It's been too easy for Chelsea this season. We have to find a way to make it more challenging, so that the fans get more excitement. Isn't it supposed to be about entertainment?

coverby
Post #24
Monday May 25, 2015 7:19am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 501
You used the Daily mail as a source? Really? And you say what dolcem says is bullshit. Wow this makes me laugh so much harder than anything you've ever written on here.

rainORshine
Post #25
Monday May 25, 2015 7:23am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
its a european person named adrian durham talking about the play-off games in europe he has been watching and how he would like to see them in EPL

the fact that is so incredibly funny to you is a little puzzling, but ok

rainORshine
Post #26
Monday May 25, 2015 7:27am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
i guess you agree with dolcem that their are no play-offs in europe and that no-one in europe likes play-offs or the idea of playoffs?

are you still laughing really hard?

coverby
Post #27
Monday May 25, 2015 7:46am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 501
Yes I am still laughing that you are using the Daily Mail as a source to prove anythjng.

And I think you need to re-read what dolcem wrote.

dolcem
Post #28
Monday May 25, 2015 8:16am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
The only playoffs in Europe are for, say, the final promotion spot, which has nothing to do with the American playoff system, used to award trophies (after allowing half the league in, in some cases). The only playoffs in Europe to award trophies are called "cups."

If you think that finding an op-ed in the Daily Fail, one of the worst tabloids in the UK, proves that Europeans in general want the playoff system, you're the one that is going to be laughed at. Or was something else your point?

Playoffs make perfect sense within the American franchise system, but there is a reason for the defensive posture in that article: no one will take it seriously. When a serious league adopts the American-style playoff system, let us know, but until then, be aware that it really only makes sense in the American context, and that people will not take you seriously if you suggest it elsewhere. Trust me, I spent years trying to convince Europeans of how superior our system is before I finally figured out that it wouldn't work over there.

Yes, Liga MX has it, but that's because they have the closest thing to a franchise system you'll find outside of the MLS. And because the only thing they care about is turning a profit, even if it means using marketing gimmicks. Let's not forget that these are the same clubs that usually play their second teams in the Libertadores because there's more money in Liga MX.
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rainORshine
Post #29
Monday May 25, 2015 8:30am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
not using "the daily mail" - im using one british dude.

"When I explain to my fellow countrymen the system the rest of the world uses..." -dolcem

do you really need more "proof" that play-offs exist outside of the US?

you dont think there is "proof" that some europeans like both the idea of play-offs as well as the play-offs THEY ALREADY HAVE? they are ALL "perplexed" because they are not even familiar with the concept of play-offs?

id ask if you are still laughing, but obviously you are. just laughing and laughing. glad i could entertain you so much

admsghs27
Post #30
Monday May 25, 2015 9:26am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Europe is a freaking joke league wise... We all know who will win the title every year.. easily 2-5 clubs every year in the top leagues in Europe every year... Boooooring!!!!! As for the whole Western Hemisphere AKA America playoffs are the best.... Just imagine if the regular season ended by having a champion for best record... Wow so many new champions in NFL and NBA and MLB etc....

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