RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
Lilshmike
Post #76
Thursday February 21, 2019 7:07am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,178
Original post from Dave

@stoked3 - I agree with much of what you're saying there are a couple things to keep in mind since the firing of JK.....
1) Arena had an agenda to promote/feature MLS raised and/or based players. I don't know if this was directed from USSF/SUM, or if this was his own personal thought process. Look back at who he called up and who was in his starting XI...Heavily populated with MLS guys or guys who played for him before.
2) Arena wasn't willing to experiment with player selections. He used the exact same group even though many of them were aging out, or were performing poorly.
3) Interim Coach (DS) was an assistant coach under the Arena era. Again an unusual number of MLS players were featured....this is where Trapp was given more opportunities than he should have. Even most of the European based called were players raised in the US and moved to Europe to start their careers (McKennie). The 1 positive from DS was that he mostly called in youth, instead of the OLD Guard. The one aspect (long shot) I kind of hope during this time is that DS was trying to help some of these kids qualify for work permits by getting them caps, even if they weren't the best option.
4) Berhalter hasn't had an opportunity to show if he does/doesn't have bias one way or another. So far he's only had an opportunity to call up MLS based players, so again we get Trapp, Roldan, etc... The March camp will shed light on if he favors MLS players over the European players.

I would have preferred if the March Camp were held in Europe rather than in the US, as it would have forced Berhalter to pull more players from European clubs than falling back on players who've already been called up during the January Camp.
Honestly, one of the most sensible things stated on this entire topic...

The calamity that followed Klinsmann's firing, with both Arena and Sarachan, now with a coach who has only had one window to call in players (a non-fifa sanctioned window where he could only call in MLS players), and that's supposed to be indicative of some racist US Soccer agenda? No, that's ridiculous.

Candidly, the whole "Morales isnt getting called in because of racism" is whats rubbing people the wrong way. And rightly so, because that's just downright ridiculous. Look at the circumstances and put things into perspective. Sometimes people get favorable treatment, sometimes people get the shaft. Landon Donovan got the shaft under Klinsmann, and Green got preferential treatment - was that racism? No, absolutely not.

Arena was a joke, and he called in who he was familiar with... MLS players (which makes sense considering he pretty much spent his entire career with MLS and was coming from an MLS position). Sarachan was a stop gap, he knew it, and figured "let's just throw out caps to a bunch of young players, why the hell not". Berhalter has legitimately only had one window with only MLS players available... nobody knows anything about who he rates, who hes going to call in, and what his plan is because it's too early to tell. That's just plain common sense...

But on the topic of specifically Morales, sure, he warrants a look considering he plays consistently in the Bundesliga... but is he really going to move the needle? By the next world cup, he will be on the back end of his career and possibly be aged out. He plays CDM... and is he really better than McKennie or Adams? If we were to call in a competitive 23 for WC qualifying tomorrow, how many CDMs would we need? Is the plan to play older guys who may not be in the picture come 2022, or build towards the future with youth?

At the end of the day, he never was and never will be a major contributor to the national team. He will only ever be a depth piece. Maybe hes deserved more attention than he has received... but again, given the circumstances of the coaching instability since Klinsmann was sacked, its completely understandable without crying "racism" as to why he wasn't called in more.

Personally, I'd be fine with calling him in and think hes done enough to earn a look. However, if it doesnt happen, I wouldn't be upset over it or think that there was some USSF conspiracy to prevent that from happening. Sometimes people just get the shaft.

bjelks
Post #77
Thursday February 21, 2019 12:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
The problem is no one is calling for him to play over Adams and Mckennie, but to not acknowledge that him not getting called over Trapp and whatever is left of Bradley, Roldan, Delgado, is highway robbery.
And to think that if called upon for an injury or reserve role, Trapp and Bradley, wont get targeted and lose us a game is silly.
That's when I strongly disagree that he does vastly improve our team compared to the options suggested to play that reserve role.
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #78
Thursday February 21, 2019 2:30pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,143
As a Morales fan, I dispute your unspoken notion that Morales wouldn't get targeted. Not at home as a responsible #6, Morales has always chased the game and players. His aggressiveness is what I've always liked but he's no Radja Naingolan or Gary Medel. Morales has always been a hothead and is a yellow/red card waiting to happen. Also he's not a great passer of the ball. And opposing teams would and will target him in position with everyone spread out if he played the #6. There's a reason why he's just not that highly rated in Germany.

"Highway robbery" it's not when you consider the players you mentioned are 4-6 years younger. That's a whole cycle or more. And like I said it's debatable how much better Morales is than Trapp, aside from being stronger defensively. Midfield these days is probably the USA's strongest position. I'd agree that if Morales were out there alongside Bradley or anyone vs T&T we would've played in the last World Cup. But Arena hated Germericans.

Call him in for the March friendlies, I personally don't want to see a bunch of early season MLS guys out there anyway. But don't be surprised if he doesn't get called in.

Lilshmike
Post #79
Thursday February 21, 2019 2:57pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,178
For years, Trapp has played and served as captain for Berhalters club team. He knows his system and tactics inside and out by now. Trapp doesn't suck, but he too isn't going to move the needle. He gets unfair criticism from people who like to find an easy scapegoat. Trapp won't improve the level of play by being out on the field for the USMNT... but he also won't bring it down. Hes just sort of a filler piece.

Now if there is one person in the entire pool who, given a situation in a one off game where they were needed to play that CDM role and Berhalter gave a specific set of instructions as to what was required/expected of him in that position (a "I need you to go out there and do this for me" situation), Trapp genuinely might be one of, if not the best, options. Again, this makes sense given his history and understanding of Berhalter. For this reason, it should be no surprise that he would get called in as a depth piece... and it has nothing to do with racism.

Bradley fits into that box as well. Hes not going to raise the level of play, but he won't bring it down. In a one off game where called upon to do a specific job, he would be able to do it and provide nothing more, nothing less.

Nobody is calling for Roldan and Delgado to get called in and be contributors. Most people are less than impressed with those players and would rather see others. And given the circumstances after Klinsmann got fired, when was the last time we actually had a legit coach who had a window with the entire pool available? We have no idea who will legitimately get called in when the time comes. And again, Morales exclusion has had nothing to do with racism.

And by virtue of the position, bench options don't vastly improve a team. Depth pieces are guys who should be as labeled above - good enough to do the job and not lower the level of play by being on the field. If they improved the level of play... then they wouldn't be on the bench. At that point, it's a matter of preference for the coach (locker room presence, personal history, etc) who get those last roster spots because those guys aren't going to be big on-field contributors or game changers. Given the histories of both Trapp and Bradley with Berhalter and the USMNT, it's no surprise that they would get an advantage over others to take one of those last spots. And again, that has nothing to do with racism.

And no, I wholeheartedly disagree that teams would "target" Trapp and Bradley if they played and we would lose games as a result. That's silly. Teams typically "target" game changing players to prevent them from having the freedom/ability to make plays, certain players on set pieces to gain a size advantage, and specific players in defense where they can outrun/easily beat off a counter or draw fouls. From a tactical perspective, would it make a lot of sense to "target" a holding mid... knowing that theres going to be CBs that still have to be beat once you've gotten past that player? Not really. At that point, your plan is essentially to exploit the team on the counter with numbers, which isn't "targeting" a specific player - it's actually a very common game plan that tons of teams use. Either that, or a team may press high to force mistakes and turnovers by having lots of pressure on players in their own defensive third... but that comes at the expense of giving another player(s) more freedom in other (attacking) parts of the field. And if that player is really as bad as you think, is it really worth "targeting" them? In my opinion, not really because your players should be able to make easy work of that guy regardless of the situation.

bjelks
Post #80
Thursday February 21, 2019 4:14pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from hamsamwich

As a Morales fan, I dispute your unspoken notion that Morales wouldn't get targeted. Not at home as a responsible #6, Morales has always chased the game and players. His aggressiveness is what I've always liked but he's no Radja Naingolan or Gary Medel. Morales has always been a hothead and is a yellow/red card waiting to happen. Also he's not a great passer of the ball. And opposing teams would and will target him in position with everyone spread out if he played the #6. There's a reason why he's just not that highly rated in Germany.

"Highway robbery" it's not when you consider the players you mentioned are 4-6 years younger. That's a whole cycle or more. And like I said it's debatable how much better Morales is than Trapp, aside from being stronger defensively. Midfield these days is probably the USA's strongest position. I'd agree that if Morales were out there alongside Bradley or anyone vs T&T we would've played in the last World Cup. But Arena hated Germericans.

Call him in for the March friendlies, I personally don't want to see a bunch of early season MLS guys out there anyway. But don't be surprised if he doesn't get called in.


It's ok if the field is spread and he's targeted, I'm assured he would be the best 3rd option defensively at #6 in the pool. Him or D Will. I also am sure that in a dual 6 which is what we should be with Mckennie and Adams anyway, he would be the perfect reserve.

I'm not concerned with his passing not being great, again he's competing with guys that have never played against Bundesliga pressure or tempo before, so I doubt theirs would be any better.
Other than Bradley and if evidence of the last few yrs tells you anything, Bradley would struggle to pass and defend that level even more.
Again I'm not concerned that he's considered an avg Bundesliga player, he's competing against avg MLS players.
Here's the problem with Trapp, Roldan, Delgado being 4-6 yrs younger and calling them because of their potential, their ceilings are all very low, because all are very limited physically.
So in 4 yrs, I believe they will still not be near Bundesliga starter quality. The problem with saying we don't know how much Morales is better than Trapp other than defensively is that defense is their position's primary responsibility.

I do agree Center mid is currently our strongest position group. We have 2 young phenoms that are very close to world class. Now the gap between them and their reserves is tremendous and if we actually called our 3rd and 4th best CMs, that position Group could be at full potential.
But if Adams or Mckennie go down or get suspended, we're stuck with it being a weakness again.
goalsense
tjknowsall
Post #81
Thursday February 21, 2019 4:33pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 436
danny williams and morales are the most overlooked national players of their generation. I believe in danny williams more than i do morales, not because of the level of play they play at. Obviously morales has played many years in germany as williams has bounced around england and europe. However, Danny williams was better than bradley last cycle and didn't get a sniff. Against brazil in gillette danny williams was our only bright spot, yet he barely ever got a chance after that... no player of williams or morales' caliber should be overlooked for non-exciting mls players...

bjelks
Post #82
Thursday February 21, 2019 5:20pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from tjknowsall

danny williams and morales are the most overlooked national players of their generation. I believe in danny williams more than i do morales, not because of the level of play they play at. Obviously morales has played many years in germany as williams has bounced around england and europe. However, Danny williams was better than bradley last cycle and didn't get a sniff. Against brazil in gillette danny williams was our only bright spot, yet he barely ever got a chance after that... no player of williams or morales' caliber should be overlooked for non-exciting mls players...


This guy gets it. The low hanging fruit for US men's soccer is taking the politics, xenophobia, and RACE out of player selection.
Then we can talk about youth development and MLS.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #83
Thursday February 21, 2019 5:46pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 933
Original post from bjelks

It's ok if the field is spread and he's targeted, I'm assured he would be the best 3rd option defensively at #6 in the pool. Him or D Will. I also am sure that in a dual 6 which is what we should be with Mckennie and Adams anyway, he would be the perfect reserve.

I'm not concerned with his passing not being great, again he's competing with guys that have never played against Bundesliga pressure or tempo before, so I doubt theirs would be any better.
Other than Bradley and if evidence of the last few yrs tells you anything, Bradley would struggle to pass and defend that level even more.
Again I'm not concerned that he's considered an avg Bundesliga player, he's competing against avg MLS players.
Here's the problem with Trapp, Roldan, Delgado being 4-6 yrs younger and calling them because of their potential, their ceilings are all very low, because all are very limited physically.
So in 4 yrs, I believe they will still not be near Bundesliga starter quality. The problem with saying we don't know how much Morales is better than Trapp other than defensively is that defense is their position's primary responsibility.

I do agree Center mid is currently our strongest position group. We have 2 young phenoms that are very close to world class. Now the gap between them and their reserves is tremendous and if we actually called our 3rd and 4th best CMs, that position Group could be at full potential.
But if Adams or Mckennie go down or get suspended, we're stuck with it being a weakness again.


Here's my problem with you saying that the passing wouldn't be an issue with the Nats because Morales plays in a higher tempo league-it requires us to ignore the fact that we've actually seen Trapp and Bradley spray quality passes against quality teams at the international level. And Trapp, at least, has done it recently. Say what you will about some of his other weaknesses, Trapp is pretty good at picking out a pass from the 6 role. So no, it's unlikely that Morales would be at least as good as Trapp (or even Bradley) in distribution just because he plays in the Bundesliga.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #84
Thursday February 21, 2019 6:41pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 291
Original post from bjelks

This guy gets it. The low hanging fruit for US men's soccer is taking the politics, xenophobia, and RACE out of player selection.
Then we can talk about youth development and MLS.


It is NOT racism rather it is more of US soccer trying to promote MLS. I think US soccer has leaned toward white players in youth set ups b.c they are too stupid to understand the pay for play shuts the door on alot of minorities. But that should be a whole different thread.

A fun thread would be who has been screwed the most from call ups last cycle.

But the 2 guys that always come to mind-Benny F (not the current Benny) but a couple yrs ago he always played well for the nats and we could have used him underneath the forwards

And yes D Williams-I saw him play live for the Nats. Always was impressed with him.

At this point Williams can't stay healthy. I am really hoping to see Holmes.

But it happens, guys get passed by whom should be at least called in Ie Ream, Lijac, Hyndman, Del luccca, etc Pankhurst should have received more call ups, etc But not sure it is due to race.

US soccer likes guys who play in the US simply put, not saying its right but that doesn't make it racist. Green was picked over MLS poster boy, jozy always gets the nod, the list goes on.

Lets just hope GB continues to be transparent and please call in holmes for a look.

BTW Mckinnie and Adams are playing amazing. If CP gets back into form and Sergeant and Weah continue to play well-we are looking at a really good squad.
Stoked
Lilshmike
Post #85
Thursday February 21, 2019 6:46pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,178
Original post from bjelks

This guy gets it. The low hanging fruit for US men's soccer is taking the politics, xenophobia, and RACE out of player selection.
Then we can talk about youth development and MLS.
Again, what are you talking about? Both of those guys got opportunities under Klinsmann, and Williams even got a look under Sarachan before he got hurt. Arena was an outlier who very clearly favored MLS, nobody has ever disputed that.

None of this has anything to do with race or xenophobia. Seriously, why do you keep beating that drum??

bjelks
Post #86
Thursday February 21, 2019 7:14pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from Lilshmike

For years, Trapp has played and served as captain for Berhalters club team. He knows his system and tactics inside and out by now. Trapp doesn't suck, but he too isn't going to move the needle. He gets unfair criticism from people who like to find an easy scapegoat. Trapp won't improve the level of play by being out on the field for the USMNT... but he also won't bring it down. Hes just sort of a filler piece.

Defensive midfielders are responsible for stopping attacks before they get to center backs, winning 50/50s, picking up lose balls, closing down space, occasional 1v1 defending in the midfield, keeping the ball under pressure and passing to an attacker. He's terrible at all these things against decent intl competition, therefore he sucks and doesn't bring down the level of play of the team.

Now if there is one person in the entire pool who, given a situation in a one off game where they were needed to play that CDM role and Berhalter gave a specific set of instructions as to what was required/expected of him in that position (a "I need you to go out there and do this for me" situation), Trapp genuinely might be one of, if not the best, options. Again, this makes sense given his history and understanding of Berhalter. For this reason, it should be no surprise that he would get called in as a depth piece... and it has nothing to do with racism.

Tactical understanding means nothing when you're physically mismatched and getting ran off the field. Never has never will. Look at the England tape.

Bradley fits into that box as well. Hes not going to raise the level of play, but he won't bring it down. In a one off game where called upon to do a specific job, he would be able to do it and provide nothing more, nothing less.

Again Bradley playing the 6 is a major liability. Too physically limited. Look at Colombia tape, Argentina, CR in quailes, Trini in quailes.
I'll add, why should we praise GB's tactics? What has he won?

Nobody is calling for Roldan and Delgado to get called in and be contributors. Most people are less than impressed with those players and would rather see others. And given the circumstances after Klinsmann got fired, when was the last time we actually had a legit coach who had a window with the entire pool available? We have no idea who will legitimately get called in when the time comes. And again, Morales exclusion has had nothing to do with racism.

As long as white mls players are being called over superior minority Euro players, I'm gonna call a spade or spade. And you can throw Acosta in there.

And by virtue of the position, bench options don't vastly improve a team. Depth pieces are guys who should be as labeled above - good enough to do the job and not lower the level of play by being on the field. If they improved the level of play... then they wouldn't be on the bench. At that point, it's a matter of preference for the coach (locker room presence, personal history, etc) who get those last roster spots because those guys aren't going to be big on-field contributors or game changers. Given the histories of both Trapp and Bradley with Berhalter and the USMNT, it's no surprise that they would get an advantage over others to take one of those last spots. And again, that has nothing to do with racism.

I wholeheartedly disagree that either one of those guys wouldn't bring our level down if called in as a sub or forced to play because of suspension or injury. It would be very easy to see the difference between them and first choice guys. The problem is you saying it's ok for a manager to call guys they're familiar with that just happened to be white mls guys over better minority. Which the manager just happens to be more familiar with because of the closed American system that denies opportunities to lower class non white kids...hmm

And no, I wholeheartedly disagree that teams would "target" Trapp and Bradley if they played and we would lose games as a result. That's silly. Teams typically "target" game changing players to prevent them from having the freedom/ability to make plays, certain players on set pieces to gain a size advantage, and specific players in defense where they can outrun/easily beat off a counter or draw fouls. From a tactical perspective, would it make a lot of sense to "target" a holding mid... knowing that theres going to be CBs that still have to be beat once you've gotten past that player? Not really. At that point, your plan is essentially to exploit the team on the counter with numbers, which isn't "targeting" a specific player - it's actually a very common game plan that tons of teams use. Either that, or a team may press high to force mistakes and turnovers by having lots of pressure on players in their own defensive third... but that comes at the expense of giving another player(s) more freedom in other (attacking) parts of the field. And if that player is really as bad as you think, is it really worth "targeting" them? In my opinion, not really because your players should be able to make easy work of that guy regardless of the situation.


Well teams may find a major liability at the Cdm role with Trapp or MB and focus high pressing or countering because they're easy money, if that makes you feel better
goalsense
bjelks
Post #87
Thursday February 21, 2019 7:19pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from cudevil

Here's my problem with you saying that the passing wouldn't be an issue with the Nats because Morales plays in a higher tempo league-it requires us to ignore the fact that we've actually seen Trapp and Bradley spray quality passes against quality teams at the international level. And Trapp, at least, has done it recently. Say what you will about some of his other weaknesses, Trapp is pretty good at picking out a pass from the 6 role. So no, it's unlikely that Morales would be at least as good as Trapp (or even Bradley) in distribution just because he plays in the Bundesliga.


Lol what Quality international teams has Trapp sprayed passes around on?
And bradley has been a turnover machine the past 3 yrs at least
goalsense
bjelks
Post #88
Thursday February 21, 2019 7:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from Lilshmike

Again, what are you talking about? Both of those guys got opportunities under Klinsmann, and Williams even got a look under Sarachan before he got hurt. Arena was an outlier who very clearly favored MLS, nobody has ever disputed that.

None of this has anything to do with race or xenophobia. Seriously, why do you keep beating that drum??


I'll stop when USA uses the same criteria to select all 23.
Quality of league?
Club form?
Position of need?
goalsense
cudevil
Post #89
Thursday February 21, 2019 7:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 933
Original post from bjelks

Lol what Quality international teams has Trapp sprayed passes around on?
And bradley has been a turnover machine the past 3 yrs at least


Not recognizing that Trapp played plenty of good passes over the last 1.5 years for the Nats is just deliberate ignorance or confirmation bias. It's ridiculous to not at least acknowledge it.

bjelks
Post #90
Thursday February 21, 2019 8:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from cudevil

Not recognizing that Trapp played plenty of good passes over the last 1.5 years for the Nats is just deliberate ignorance or confirmation bias. It's ridiculous to not at least acknowledge it.


Who's counting every pass that someone completes when watching a game?
How many assists has he has against top teams?
What has our possession been against top teams?

All I know is defensively is terrible and under pressure he's terrible and he sticks out like a sore thumb.

When ppl talk about the best #6s in the world they talk about how they won balls in the midfield and shutdown attacks, not how many uncontested 5 yd passes someone made.
goalsense
Page 6 of 7
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7  Next »

With Jesse Marsch and David Wagner at the helms of teams in the top flight, YA will cover their exploits this season.
RECENT POSTS
YA Transfer Tracker
Yanks Face Relegation in England
Tale of Two Young Yanks in Europe
Wagner Nears Premier League Goal