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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #496
Thursday June 11, 2015 3:45pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
We don't turn games into track meets until the 2nd half. Our base formation and play is not incredibly fast, etc. It becomes fast when we sub in Yedlin and Morris.
That's why at this point Yedlin and Morris are much more valuable to us as 2nd half subs. Their speed becomes much more deadly when they are going against tired opponent.s

Personally I think a starting line up with Altidore and Dempsey up top. Beckerman as the DM. Bradley, Bedoya/Mix/Zardes/Fab on the wings. Will have good build up play and tire the defense out. Then come 50-60 minutes you sub on Yedlin in the MF and sub on Morris for Dempsey. Those 2 with Altidore holding the ball up and attracting defenders will create LOTS of space for the pacy Yedlin and Morris. Will be deadly.

I also think some of you are VASTLY underrating Altidore's speed. He might be big, but he's still faster than ArJo...
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hamsamwich
Post #497
Thursday June 11, 2015 4:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,249
I liked the jasikevicius comparison to Bradley although Lithuania is a little more accomplished at basketball than we are at soccer. For now.

As for Dempsey- I'd put him at striker. He does like to touch the ball Rey I will give you that, but his interplay with others is good.

Nobody is under rating Jozy's speed. He's just a little "heavier" than he should be for a soccer player, for me. It's all about fitness and playing 90 minutes and I don't see Jozy closing down the way I see Zardes or Wondo, for examples, do. Also possibly a reason he blows out his hammy, because he is carrying a lot of weight.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #498
Thursday June 11, 2015 4:22pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from hamsamwich

I liked the jasikevicius comparison to Bradley although Lithuania is a little more accomplished at basketball than we are at soccer. For now.

As for Dempsey- I'd put him at striker. He does like to touch the ball Rey I will give you that, but his interplay with others is good.

Nobody is under rating Jozy's speed. He's just a little "heavier" than he should be for a soccer player, for me. It's all about fitness and playing 90 minutes and I don't see Jozy closing down the way I see Zardes or Wondo, for examples, do. Also possibly a reason he blows out his hammy, because he is carrying a lot of weight.


His hamstring has nothing to do with his weight. You see a lot of finely tuned athletes that are fast with hammy issues (look at Track and Field athletes...ALWAYS have Hammy issues).

You are understating his speed. He is probably our 2nd fastest striker after Morris. People just hate Jozy for whatever reason. Give him a hard time over EVERYTHING and give others passes for the exact same thing.
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cleancutimage
Post #499
Thursday June 11, 2015 4:30pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,318
There is a reason why Dempsey and Jozy have 67 goals between them and all the other strikers have 19 goals between them because Jozy and Dempsey are our most reliable and lethal strikers. Yes, Jozy may be frustrating but he is our best option to play that position. AJ doesn't demand the ball enough to be the first choice for the position even though I believe he is more talented than Jozy. AJ has to want it and develop that striker mentally, he is still missing that. Jozy is a beast, yes he has good speed for his size and he wants the ball and makes himself accessible. Only at Sunderland where it seemed like they tried to avoid him, he wasn't able to get touches.

hamsamwich
Post #500
Thursday June 11, 2015 4:58pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,249
Ha! I must be Jozy biggest defender on here. I repeatedly put him at the top of the striker list. I backed him before the Nigeria friendly I went to last year with my Altidore jersey. You must have the wrong guy. There's only one USMNT player I don't like and it's Omar Gonzalez.

But Jozy needs to work on his closing down if we are gonna do a high press. I never have ever said he's not fast. Never. He is fast, powerful, and a good passer when he is able to control the ball. And I have hammy issues and I'm built like Rivaldo so I get what you are saying. But don't act like you don't know what me and Rey are talking about. He's gotten bigger and bigger and sweats more and more while looking super gassed, rather quickly compared to the others. If that's not the reason for him not running all game, then I don't know what it could be.

MSantoine
Post #501
Thursday June 11, 2015 5:18pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from cleancutimage

There is a reason why Dempsey and Jozy have 67 goals between them and all the other strikers have 19 goals between them because Jozy and Dempsey are our most reliable and lethal strikers. Yes, Jozy may be frustrating but he is our best option to play that position. AJ doesn't demand the ball enough to be the first choice for the position even though I believe he is more talented than Jozy. AJ has to want it and develop that striker mentally, he is still missing that. Jozy is a beast, yes he has good speed for his size and he wants the ball and makes himself accessible. Only at Sunderland where it seemed like they tried to avoid him, he wasn't able to get touches.


The reason is minutes. Obviously if you compare there career, almost 200 caps, to the rest of the player pool (50 caps?30 caps?). How about we took about goals since the world cup. ince the world cup Jozy and Clint have 5 goals in 11 appearances, all starts.. Arjo, Wood, Morris, Zardes, & Agudelo have a combined 6 in 15 appearances, ~half or 2/3 substitute appearances. Im guessing if you went by goals per minute. Clint/Jozy would be below the 5 I have listed since the world cup

db707
Post #502
Thursday June 11, 2015 5:49pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,064
Original post from MSantoine

The reason is minutes. Obviously if you compare there career, almost 200 caps, to the rest of the player pool (50 caps?30 caps?). How about we took about goals since the world cup. ince the world cup Jozy and Clint have 5 goals in 11 appearances, all starts.. Arjo, Wood, Morris, Zardes, & Agudelo have a combined 6 in 15 appearances, ~half or 2/3 substitute appearances. Im guessing if you went by goals per minute. Clint/Jozy would be below the 5 I have listed since the world cup


Well noted. I've always hated the lazy goals per game stat. Goals per minute or per shot attempt/scoring chance, either is a better measure. Boyd has about a dozen caps I think but total the minutes played is more like 3 games. Also if someone is taking spot kicks (as both Jozy and Clint have at times in their NT careers) that can inflate the numbers too. I was curious (and maybe it was discussed and I missed it) who in the no Jozy, no Clint lineup would have taken a penalty for the U.S. in the past two games. Bradley? I believe Johannsson's taken them at club level before.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #503
Thursday June 11, 2015 6:09pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from hamsamwich

Ha! I must be Jozy biggest defender on here. I repeatedly put him at the top of the striker list. I backed him before the Nigeria friendly I went to last year with my Altidore jersey. You must have the wrong guy. There's only one USMNT player I don't like and it's Omar Gonzalez.

But Jozy needs to work on his closing down if we are gonna do a high press. I never have ever said he's not fast. Never. He is fast, powerful, and a good passer when he is able to control the ball. And I have hammy issues and I'm built like Rivaldo so I get what you are saying. But don't act like you don't know what me and Rey are talking about. He's gotten bigger and bigger and sweats more and more while looking super gassed, rather quickly compared to the others. If that's not the reason for him not running all game, then I don't know what it could be.


No Rey said he's not fast (can't move lateral and isn't shifty), Questioned if the USA can play as fast with him on the field. Said he is too big.

This is like the 3rd or 4th time you have done this. Defending yourself against people who aren't saying you said something (that you didn't say, but someone else did).

You defended Rey (by implication, not directly) and his statement (no one is understating his speed). So I responded to that defense.

YES the USA can play just as fast if not faster than what the play with the starting IX from the past 2 games. It's only when we go to Yedlin and Morris that our tempo goes fast. And that is partially due to the tired legs of our opponents and Yedlin and Morris pushing the tempo knowing those guys can't run with them.

If we started Yedlin and Morris the tempo wouldn't be near that fast.
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cleancutimage
Post #504
Thursday June 11, 2015 6:32pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,318
Original post from MSantoine

The reason is minutes. Obviously if you compare there career, almost 200 caps, to the rest of the player pool (50 caps?30 caps?). How about we took about goals since the world cup. ince the world cup Jozy and Clint have 5 goals in 11 appearances, all starts.. Arjo, Wood, Morris, Zardes, & Agudelo have a combined 6 in 15 appearances, ~half or 2/3 substitute appearances. Im guessing if you went by goals per minute. Clint/Jozy would be below the 5 I have listed since the world cup


Yes, I realize they have been around a lot longer and have more games and minutes but there is a reason they are still heavily relied upon. They have performed at the highest level. I would like my chances with Dempsey and Jozy in the line-up than the forward we had the past two matches any day of the week. I think it is great we have more depth but I would not exactly dethrone the old guard yet. Let's see how they do with these players integrated into the system. I just wish we could find a way to play Jozy, Dempsey and AJ. Maybe this line-up? With AJ more of a withdrawn striker than winger but could be on the wing to make the line-up less narrow and get more touches on the ball. His runs into the box from that position would be key as he would be outlet near or far post depending on where the service is being sent from.

Dempsey Jozy

Bedoya Bradley AJ

Beckerman

Chandler Johnson

Brooks Alvarado/Gonzalez/Ream

Guzan

blaise213
Post #505
Thursday June 11, 2015 6:34pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,080
Original post from cleancutimage

To question Dempsey and Altidore's place in these games is ridiculous. They would not hold us back only make us better.


Dempsey slows down the game with his dribbling and Altidore is one dimensional. Look how much better Toronto was when he wasn't there. I'm ok with these guys, just not as starters.

Rey Regicide
Post #506
Thursday June 11, 2015 7:33pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from USAGunner

No Rey said he's not fast (can't move lateral and isn't shifty), Questioned if the USA can play as fast with him on the field. Said he is too big.

This is like the 3rd or 4th time you have done this. Defending yourself against people who aren't saying you said something (that you didn't say, but someone else did).

You defended Rey (by implication, not directly) and his statement (no one is understating his speed). So I responded to that defense.

YES the USA can play just as fast if not faster than what the play with the starting IX from the past 2 games. It's only when we go to Yedlin and Morris that our tempo goes fast. And that is partially due to the tired legs of our opponents and Yedlin and Morris pushing the tempo knowing those guys can't run with them.

If we started Yedlin and Morris the tempo wouldn't be near that fast.


Well, in my defense, I said he wasn't agile, like lateral quickness shifty which would be required to do the moves Bradley did in midfield. The part about us unable to play as fast with him is with regards to his newfound mentality to play with his back to goal. 2010 qualification USMNT highlights are riddled with him running at people and behind the LB and the RB, it seems like he does less of it now. I'm sure he's fast, he just either doesn't put himself in position to do that alot, or we didn't put him in them.

Hey, these games were experiments and it gave us results, results which we take and say "we just beat some REALLY good teams, probably great teams" granted with some squad modifications and out of season form that nerfed them. And it's in a way we're not used to doing, so the question is "what do we do with this blueprint?" How does it compare to what we have, to what we've been doing? If you went into an experiment and developed positive results and don't analyze the differences, especially if they were possibly unintended (because of injuries and lack of availability), then what's it all for?

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #507
Thursday June 11, 2015 7:43pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
wait. So if Toronto beat DC United (in DC) without Bradley or Altidore. I guess they are a better team without either of them. Seriously flawed logic there.
He's missed 3 games.

Perhaps it has to do with switching GK's (13 points out of 6 games since the switch).
Perhaps it has to do with Half of their main XI being new to the team (either signed this off-season or acquired last year and some not playing much then).

They started slow, most teams with that many new acquisitions will (I don't care how good those new players are). It takes time to gel and develop chemistry and play as a unit.

I have no doubt when Altidore and Bradley return to the team after the Gold Cup that along with Gionvinco and Luke More that they will form a very good attack.
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Know Nothing
Post #508
Thursday June 11, 2015 8:23pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,768
I have no problem with Jozy if he is competing...his physicality wears defenders down which is what allows players like Morris and Wood the ability to look faster.

My concern is how Bradley and Deuce will coexist if Deuce is played as a withdrawn forward. Bradley has been effective in his last two matches (without Deuce) given the freedom to go forward and looks more comfortable in that role than he did at the WC.

When Deuce is on the field he likes to take up that position as well so I am curious if they can both make the space work and won't get in each others way.

MSantoine
Post #509
Thursday June 11, 2015 9:04pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
I think Bradley plays better without Dempsey. Dempsey tracks back and wants the ball to make things happen. While guys like Zardes, Wood, Morris, let Bradley have space and go to the places they can attack from. I think it plays to Bradley's strengths to have a different striker in there if Bradley is going to play as the "attacking" midfielder. Now if we are going to drop Bradley back and play with different CMs then I think Dempsey would be beneficial but tactically they seem to do better when the other isnt around.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #510
Thursday June 11, 2015 9:05pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,533
This is the real issue. Deuce has a strong personality... He'll want to drop into deeper to be on the ball ... That takes away from MB. MB should be captain and the focal point. This is why it looks so good...everyone defers to him. I'm fairly pessimistic how it would look with Deuce and JJ in the mix. Jozy would be fine, but he has some fierce competition now.

Also, what happens when Deuce returns...is he still captain. That would be a step backward. These two big wins have shown what we can do when MB is the focal point. I don't want to see anything hinder that. What we saw the last two games is the future...JK has a big decision to make regarding his captain.

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