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blaise213
Post #16
Monday April 6, 2015 2:14am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,574
The San Jose game was the absolute SHIT ! The quality was horrific. That was like watching long ball mixed with a ping pong game! That was the worse soccer game I have ever seen !!!

The San Jose game was night day from the Kansas city game! You build a better stadium and you get a better atmosphere!

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #17
Monday April 6, 2015 6:36am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,373
Tough game for SJ. That was Jahn's audition to prove he belongs in MLS...didn't turn out so well...too slow, low percentage of balls won in the air and almost no hold up play...not close to MLS level. He's going to get farmed out to Sac if he lays another egg like that. Looks like it will be Wondo up top again until Lenny or Sherrod get healthly.

With Innocent and Nyassi getting doubled on the flanks and everybody and their brother in Garcia's back pocket, the attack looked very poor. Quakes need another distributing focal point besides Garcia...I'd bench Nyassi and bring TT on to take some of the attention off Garcia.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #18
Tuesday April 7, 2015 5:46am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,536
Manneh confirms that by August 2016 is when he should have us citizenship.

dolcem
Post #19
Wednesday April 8, 2015 12:21am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
I'd like to take the time to comment on Luis Gil, one of the gems of the MLS youth system.

For the first time in his career, Real Salt Lake is FINALLY using a formation with his position. For the previous four seasons, Gil was forced to play on the wing in Real Salt Lake's 4-4-2 diamond. Now they're finally lining up with a 4-5-1 and this is his moment to shine, but you have to wonder what might have been. He could already have been a seasoned pro playing in Europe by this point. But instead he has spent his entire professional career being shoehorned into a position that clearly isn't his, and his development stalled.

I don't want to sound like a "eurosnob" but this is why the MLS is not where we want our young players to play. Because of the salary cap and MLS transfer policies, MLS coaches have zero incentive to develop young talent. Results are all that matter, and young players must adapt to whatever system their team uses, rather than the other way around. In fact, until the recent birth of the MLS academy system, results are the only thing that matter at any level of American soccer. None of the American coaches have even been exposed to a system where more than the result matters. Player development is an area in which they are simply inferior to their European and South American counterparts.

Gil started the first two games but Mulholland has now taken his place. He entered Sunday's game from the bench to play on the wing since Cassar didn't want to change the Beckerman/Mulholland pairing. I get that Mulholland might be slightly more MLS ready at this point but you have to wonder if he would make that call if the team were somehow able to profit in the future by selling Gil. Perhaps if that were the case, he or Kreis might have actually, you know, used a formation where Gil can actually play his position.

This guy had the chance to sign with Arsenal at 16. You would think that with Fabregas, Wilshere, and Ramsey as examples (not to mention all of the players at other positions), he might have thought twice about that offer. Instead he decided to go play on the wing in Salt Lake for coaches that are only interested in how he can help win next week's game, who, aside from Kyle Beckerman, have never had a hand in developing bona fide talent. As a USNT fan, it's painful to watch. WHO ADVISES THESE KIDS?
GET A CLUB TEAM
skangles
DC
Post #20
Wednesday April 8, 2015 12:40am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,351
Original post from dolcem
This guy had the chance to sign with Arsenal at 16. You would think that with Fabregas, Wilshere, and Ramsey as examples (not to mention all of the players at other positions), he might have thought twice about that offer. Instead he decided to go play on the wing in Salt Lake for coaches that are only interested in how he can help win next week's game, who, aside from Kyle Beckerman, have never had a hand in developing bona fide talent. As a USNT fan, it's painful to watch. WHO ADVISES THESE KIDS?


I know it was John Ellinger at the time but I couldn't resist.



skangles
DC
Post #21
Wednesday April 8, 2015 2:12am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,351
I've gone back and read through MLS soccer's whatever happened to series. It's excellent! Why did they discontinue this feature?

Jonny Walker worked in a call center for AmericanExpress for a while and Brian West works in IT in Oslo. Who knew?

All of their articles can be found here:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/what-ever-happe...%3F

Dolcem, this is for you. Here's Jon O'Brien's comments about Ajax from his "whatever happened to" article:

"I went when I was 16," he recounted. "It's just an institution, man. There's knowledge in institutions. They have really good coaches, a good idea of how they want people to play and how to get players to progress. They do a lot of great technical work and they're very rigid in their 4-3-3 system. It's all about learning all the different roles. It makes it easy when you switch from team to team."

"The next step was always ahead of you and you could see where you wanted to go," he added. "You could finish training and go see the first team train. That's something that was definitely missing a bit in American soccer when I was growing up, but now it's a bit more clear with MLS development."


2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #22
Wednesday April 8, 2015 6:06am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,536
They are still using Gil out wide even in this new 4-3-3 formation. Morales is still the CAM.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #23
Wednesday April 8, 2015 2:04pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 1,016
Original post from dolcem

I'd like to take the time to comment on Luis Gil, one of the gems of the MLS youth system.

I don't want to sound like a "eurosnob" but this is why the MLS is not where we want our young players to play. Because of the salary cap and MLS transfer policies, MLS coaches have zero incentive to develop young talent.



Mate, you're not a Eurosnob. You simply see an obvious problem with our youth development and want it to improve. Unfortunately, the MLS apologists are incredibly sensitive and start name-calling when they can't come up with something constructive to say.

There are literally zero players that MLS can hang their hat on and say that this kid is a legit international quality player.

The MLS development poster child DeAndre Yedlin was just criticized by Pochettino for lacking in the "soccer IQ" department and it could be awhile until he see's first team action. Thats what MLS is producing?

Garber stated they were going to invest $30M in youth development this year. $30M spread out over 20 teams. Wow, Don, you're really spoiling us.

Like you said, there is no incentive for an MLS team to invest heavily into youth development. Our coaching, especially at the youth levels, is atrocious.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #24
Wednesday April 8, 2015 3:07pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,536
I wouldn't really say Gil is a product of the MLS youth system. He wasn't on an MLS youth team. He was signed by MLS out of Bradenton and RSL was the lucky team to snag him.

The MLS academy youth system is still relatively young only about 7-8 years old. There are some very talented young players on MLS academy teams right now. Do I think MLS needs to be investing more in their youth? Yes.

Everyone recognized Yedlin lacked a little tactically. Pochettino stated that was the reason why he was brought in January. The kid is talented and he showed that in the WC.

I would say Yedlin is a legit international player as well as Agudelo.

Patience is a virtue, gentlemen.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #25
Wednesday April 8, 2015 3:42pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,146
I wonder if the best thing to do, specific to MLS player development, would be to incentivize the academy development in some way.

Like, um....
I'm spitballing here.....
....maybe the academies have to run with a certain number of kids, including some scholarship kids.
But a homegrown player's salary counts only fractionally against the salary cap, and if a team does sell a homegrown player to a major club, that team gets to keep more of the profit, and gets some other kind of major perk as well?

I guess for league parity, you'd need something to help the clubs in smaller cities draw kids in.

And you bring the whole program in incrementally.

dolcem
Post #26
Wednesday April 8, 2015 8:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Richie-well said.

Skangles-yeah, Besagno is one of a long list of prodigies whose development was derailed by the MLS, the most painful probably being Agudelo. Of course many of them may have been busts in their own right, but the numbers don't lie. In fact the only teenage prodigies I can remember the MLS successfully developing are Jozy and MB90, and even then I think it was that they got out of the MLS quickly. Neither exactly lit it up there and I don't think their experience on the Red Bulls senior team was a particularly important part of their development. Yedlin is another example: he came into the MLS as a teenage prodigy and hasn't seen the pitch in England despite Tottenham's dearth of RB options because of his lack of tactical awareness (something he didn't learn much of playing in the MLS). There was Brek Shea, but he wasn't all that good a player and only showed how sticking around too long in the MLS will stall your career (although Stoke was a bad choice as well). Other than Andy Najar, I think we'd have to go back to Clint Dempsey for an example of a player the MLS did a good job of developing. Its track record in that department is plain bad (but this is to be expected of a 20 year old league).

Awesome Ajax article. The NY times did a great one a few years back: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06...

Like most other clubs in countries like Holland and Argentina, the Ajax senior team plays for more than the result. Style and player development is part of their objectives, even if it means occasionally sacrificing results.

Original post from 2tone

They are still using Gil out wide even in this new 4-3-3 formation. Morales is still the CAM.


I know. It's painful. This is what we have to put up with in the MLS (again, not bashing the league, it's only 20 years old, but just saying).

Original post from 2tone

I wouldn't really say Gil is a product of the MLS youth system. He wasn't on an MLS youth team. He was signed by MLS out of Bradenton and RSL was the lucky team to snag him.

The MLS academy youth system is still relatively young only about 7-8 years old. There are some very talented young players on MLS academy teams right now. Do I think MLS needs to be investing more in their youth? Yes.

Everyone recognized Yedlin lacked a little tactically. Pochettino stated that was the reason why he was brought in January. The kid is talented and he showed that in the WC.

I would say Yedlin is a legit international player as well as Agudelo.

Patience is a virtue, gentlemen.


Which academy Gil played for is irrelevant; the point I made is that RSL completely messed up his development, and this is someone the USNT really could've used. We can only imagine if he went to Arsenal. While you bring up the fact that the MLS academy system is improving, you ignore the point I made in my post. Even if it starts churning out prodigies, when they turn pro their development will be screwed up by MLS teams that have neither the incentive nor the know-how to develop them into quality players and export them.

Original post from mmee

I wonder if the best thing to do, specific to MLS player development, would be to incentivize the academy development in some way.

Like, um....
I'm spitballing here.....
....maybe the academies have to run with a certain number of kids, including some scholarship kids.
But a homegrown player's salary counts only fractionally against the salary cap, and if a team does sell a homegrown player to a major club, that team gets to keep more of the profit, and gets some other kind of major perk as well?

I guess for league parity, you'd need something to help the clubs in smaller cities draw kids in.

And you bring the whole program in incrementally.


YES. You get it. While having the HG player's salary count less against the cap is an important step, the final piece is still missing. Under the current system, the senior team's only objective is winning. The aforementioned HG salary rule is a bonus and encourages teams to use HG players, but there still is no incentive to play for anything other than the result. What separates clubs abroad is that they can sell their players for a huge profit and reinvest it in the squad (if the owners keep all the cash, the fans will revolt). While MLS owners do get to pocket the proceeds made from the transfer, the money can't be reinvested in the squad because of the salary cap (and it's a decision the fans will never be happy about). There just isn't any incentive to develop young players and export them to Europe (where they can turn into elite players and help our NT, by the way); thus, MLS teams never play for anything other than the result, while teams in other countries design their training and tactics specifically around developing individual talent (and it works).

A good example is what my club, Independiente, is doing right now. We have this young guy named Matias Pisano who is just like Di Maria (quick, dribbly left footed attacking midfielder who likes to cut in from the right). In the latter half of 2014, after starting with a 3-5-2 we switched to a 4-5-1. But then in January we got rid of our #10 and bought a left back. We switched to a classic 4-4-2 and play the left back at left mid...in other words, we gave Pisano the keys to the team. The idea is to develop him into a quality attacker and send him to Europe for a hefty fee. We have built the team's style around accommodating the development of one player, even if it costs us a result or two. This is how Argentines approach the game and it is no wonder that they produce such good players. If RSL were run by Argentines, they would have used a 3-5-2 or 4-5-1 (or would have just plain sold Morales) in order to facilitate Gil's development. Instead, Kreis and now Cassar just throw him on the wing and hope he helps them get a goal that week. And since every American coach was raised in a system run with that mentality, they know no other way.

Until this changes, the sooner our players leave MLS for other leagues, the better.
GET A CLUB TEAM
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #27
Wednesday April 8, 2015 9:52pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,536
Teams already do keep more of the profit when HG's are sold. I believe MLS teams get 60 or 70% of the profit.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #28
Wednesday April 8, 2015 10:50pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,536
I wouldn't say there is any substantial evidence to say MLS teams are going to ruin a top players development.

And it's hard to say RSL messed up Gil's development. If he was better than Morales, then you would have to think Kreis would have had No qualms in putting Gil ahead of Morales. Bofo Saucedo and Jordan Allen have profited heavily form RSL's academy team. Both are now first team players. And I will tell you that Saucedo is going to turn heads in a couple of years with RSL. Liverpool is still in pursuit of Brooks Lennon(another RSL?AZ Academy player).

I thought Seattle did a fairly good job with Yedlin. Seattle also has two more prospects in Morris and Mansaray who look pretty damn good.

LA has done a fairly good job developing some players.

FC Dallas is considered one of the best academies in not only the USA but in North America.

Philly Union have put a crap ton of money into their academy.

You won't be able to accurately compare and contrast until MLS is churning academy players out with some regularity.

If the academies were as bad as some of you like to think then why are foreign teams looking more and more at current MLS academy players to poach?

dolcem
Post #29
Thursday April 9, 2015 12:21am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Original post from 2tone

Teams already do keep more of the profit when HG's are sold. I believe MLS teams get 60 or 70% of the profit.


But because of the salary cap, they cannot reinvest this money in the squad. It's not really a goal that management around the league is focusing on.

Original post from 2tone

I wouldn't say there is any substantial evidence to say MLS teams are going to ruin a top players development.

And it's hard to say RSL messed up Gil's development. If he was better than Morales, then you would have to think Kreis would have had No qualms in putting Gil ahead of Morales. Bofo Saucedo and Jordan Allen have profited heavily form RSL's academy team. Both are now first team players. And I will tell you that Saucedo is going to turn heads in a couple of years with RSL. Liverpool is still in pursuit of Brooks Lennon(another RSL?AZ Academy player).

I thought Seattle did a fairly good job with Yedlin. Seattle also has two more prospects in Morris and Mansaray who look pretty damn good.

LA has done a fairly good job developing some players.

FC Dallas is considered one of the best academies in not only the USA but in North America.

Philly Union have put a crap ton of money into their academy.

You won't be able to accurately compare and contrast until MLS is churning academy players out with some regularity.

If the academies were as bad as some of you like to think then why are foreign teams looking more and more at current MLS academy players to poach?


First of all, your bit about Gil is nonsense. RSL had an absolute prodigy, one of the best youth prospects we've had in a while, and they went FIVE seasons ('10-'14) without using a formation where he could play in his natural position. If RSL were any other team around the world, they would have started using a 3-5-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3 (or even sold Morales) so that Gil could get PT at his position. Instead, they just had him play on the wing in their 4-4-2 diamond. Gil had to adapt to the system they were using, not the other way around. And, surprise, his development completely stalled. And now this is the first season they're using a formation with CM's and after two games they've decided they'd rather go with Mulholland and that they'll use Gil as a sub on the wing. In other words, RSL has completely f*d up developing Gil and USNT fans are the ones that lose out.

Second, it seems that you didn't read or didn't understand my post. I wasn't even talking about MLS youth academies. While they have their own problems (that's for another post), they're actually starting to churn out some good talent on occasion. But the MLS SENIOR TEAMS screw these players' development up. This is because the coaches have neither the incentive nor the know-how to play for anything other than the result and develop them. Which I guess is understandable because they never played in environments where something other than the result mattered. But if we want the MLS to improve as a league and start developing and exporting world class talent (for the good of the NT and soccer in this country), clubs must be given incentives to selling their prodigies abroad (ie being able to reinvest the profits in the squad), and MLS coaches need to learn more from their South American and European counterparts.
GET A CLUB TEAM
blaise213
Post #30
Thursday April 9, 2015 4:31am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,574
MLS week 5 1/2

Watching the Crew vs Whitecaps game right now...

Well this game isn't shit... Every single player showing their technical 1 v 1 ability. More MLS games need to be like this! Pretty entertaining....

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The final stretch of the English league season is upon us, with several Americans on the verge of relegation with their teams.
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