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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #166
Friday April 10, 2015 1:34pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
I don't hate Wenger, a few years ago I was annoyed by him because of his lack of buying some metal (tough players in the middle and our defense). But since we hired Steve Bould that seems to have changed. We are much better defensively and can win games when we don't dominate possession now (being more clinical up top also helps). I also was annoyed at him for not having the depth to make a run at a trophy (although we always had enough to still finish top 4). Being that we ALWAYS have injuries (I'm still baffled by this, saw a study a few months back that showed how many injuries Arsenal has had over the last decade. SO many more than any other top team).

Dolcem, tactics isn't just formations. So staying in a 4-5-1 doesn't change if one is good tactically or not. The reverse is also true, constantly changing formations doesn't make one good tactically or not. Don't get me twisted Wenger is good tactically, I'm not saying he isn't. I just probably have a higher opinion of Klopp than you do. One of the best ever tactically (by reputation at least) stuck to a very stringent 4-3-3 until he got to ManU, but amazingly he has had less success at ManU when he tried to go away from his 4-3-3 (Van Gaal).

You can stay in the same formation and attack in different ways from different positions, etc. Attacking the other teams strengths and hiding your own weaknesses is a major part of tactics.

I think it is a testament to Klopp that he has salvaged this season (a few weeks ago he Dortmund was sitting in the relegation zone). Some of it was injuries. But getting those guys to play so well. Until losing to Munich This past saturday they hadn't lost a game in 7 Bundesliga matches. Only losses in the span were to Juventus. Think there is a good chance they still end up in Europa with 45+ points (which considering they at like 15 points more than halfway through the season is pretty impressive). And they can still win the DFB-Pokal (if they can beat Munich in the finals).

Anyways they are both great coaches. I think Klopp is better tactically and Wenger is better in scouting/development (really he is amazing in this category one of the best ever).

As far as Zelalem not playing in the first team at 18. Why would he play over guys who are 20+ that did play at the age of 18 (that you have listed)? You think Wenger just plays 18 year olds because he likes to play young guys, or because he had to out of necessity. Now he has those guys who were once 18 and playing at 20+ (23-25 mostly) playing. Zelalem isn't in the first team because he has world class talent playing ahead of him (at his position you have Ozil, Cazorla, Ramsey, Wilshere). Why would he play over those guys? Arsenal is loaded at his position.
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dolcem
Post #167
Friday April 10, 2015 8:44pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,692
As far as the lack of depth goes, that's what you get when you are on such a tight budget.

And as far as the lack of steel goes, you're right, Wenger needed to buy a replacement for Diaby over the years as well another CB or two but there are two reasons for that...first of all, there's a dearth of quality players at those positions, and second, Wenger always has to take economics into account in his transfer policies. Defensive players don't have the potential transfer fees that attacking players do. This past season was the first in which Wenger focused on the present instead of the future but injury problems prevented the title challenge. Watch it happen next year.

But as far as the rest goes, we've both made our points and there's nothing really left to say. There's no real way to measure which of the two is "tactically" better (although I'm not really sure what that means), so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Although the fact that Arsenal has played with many different styles over the years (the only common thread is that they play positively) and that Dortmund has not would be, IMO, as close to proof as you can get.

Lastly, Zelalem could get playing time. Wilshere and Ramsey are very injury prone as well as Arteta, who is old. Anyway, the key is that he is playing under the tutelage of arguably the best manager in history in terms of player development, so I'm as excited about him as any young yank. I thought we agreed on that point though.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #168
Friday April 10, 2015 9:32pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
One thing with Wenger is that if he feels a young guy is worth the playing time and good enough he will have no problem getting him in there in cup matches and BPL matches when others are tired or injured. Then if they prove themselves he'll have no problem sitting older guys on the bench and/or selling them. If Zelalem is good enough in the next 2-3 years you'll see guys like Arteta, Cazorla (who even though he is new to the scene, is no spring chicken) and Wilshere (if he doesn't get in form and stay healthy) being sold off.
So by 2018 we will know if Zelalem is good enough or not (to be elite). If not then he will be loaned out and or sold.
I would like to see him loaned out next year to a Championship side and/or a lower Premier League side. Him and Gnabry. Get them some time in real competitions, see what they have. As talented as both are, there is just such a log-jam at Arsenal at those positions with established World Class players.
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