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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #151
Friday March 27, 2015 11:19pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,116
I can see that the trolls are invading this website as well.

tylercocinas
Post #152
Friday March 27, 2015 11:38pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,091
Original post from USAGunner

dolcem,

As much as I'd like to wish Arsenal was #1 Academy. I don't think there is any argument that Barcelona is #1 in the world.

I'd probably put Arsenal in the top 5, perhaps 1-Barcelona, 2-Ajax, 3-Arsenal, 4-Santos, 5-ManUre


Coming from a fellow Gooner, I would have to say Southampton has to be in this conversation.

BG6
Post #153
Saturday March 28, 2015 12:25am

Joined May 2014
Total Posts: 73
Sporting needs to be considered for sustained excellence

dolcem
Post #154
Saturday March 28, 2015 2:14am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,692
Original post from USAGunner

dolcem,

As much as I'd like to wish Arsenal was #1 Academy. I don't think there is any argument that Barcelona is #1 in the world.

I'd probably put Arsenal in the top 5, perhaps 1-Barcelona, 2-Ajax, 3-Arsenal, 4-Santos, 5-ManUre


I didn't say Arsenal had the world's best academy, I said that it (arguably) develops players better than any club. Of course La Masia is the world's best academy, followed by Ajax's. But Barcelona these days is much more likely to buy established players rather than use its academy products...the philosophy has completely changed over the past couple of seasons. Arsenal, on the other hand, at the senior level develops players as well as any club in the world (and usually these players aren't products of their academy). That's what I was referring to. Wenger is the world's best coach when it comes to player development, and that's why it's fine if Zelalem hangs around there a little while even if he is not getting PT...he's only a few injuries away from getting minutes and he will learn more on the training pitch there than he would playing for, say, Sigi Schmid on a turf field.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #155
Monday March 30, 2015 4:10pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
In that case I have no issues with that.

If Zelalem sees out his contract at Arsenal (June 2017) and doesn't any significant amount of time on the pitch during that span, he will be by 2017 one of the USA's best players and a fixture in our first IX (same situation Altidore, Bradley are in at the moment). EVEN if he doesn't see a lot of time for Arsenal.

Why? Because he will still be trained way better than anyone else in the USMNT camp, AND trained to be the kind of player that JK is looking for (Attack minded, great passer...like all Arsenal midfielders).
www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com
mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #156
Thursday April 9, 2015 9:46am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 1,850
Dolcem and USAGunner-

...regarding last page's rebuttals to me on over-tinkering: ok, ok- can I retract that statement?

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #157
Thursday April 9, 2015 1:19pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
Original post from mmee

Dolcem and USAGunner-

...regarding last page's rebuttals to me on over-tinkering: ok, ok- can I retract that statement?


Welcome to the dark side...or is it the good side?
www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com
admsghs27
Post #158
Thursday April 9, 2015 5:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 5,980
Original post from USAGunner

In that case I have no issues with that.

If Zelalem sees out his contract at Arsenal (June 2017) and doesn't any significant amount of time on the pitch during that span, he will be by 2017 one of the USA's best players and a fixture in our first IX (same situation Altidore, Bradley are in at the moment). EVEN if he doesn't see a lot of time for Arsenal.

Why? Because he will still be trained way better than anyone else in the USMNT camp, AND trained to be the kind of player that JK is looking for (Attack minded, great passer...like all Arsenal midfielders).


What the hell are you talking about ?? Is not the same in Practice than playing a real competitive game. Players DO NOT go all out in practice If that were the case then green hypothetically should be our best player because he trained with arguably the best team in the world but he is not. And i'm sorry to break it to you but arsenal isn't even a top 25 team right now heck i would put a couple teams from South America over them. You Don't get the same experience in practice than you do in a real game if he isn't playing by 2017 he shouldn't even be near the Senior national team i mean he hasn't even been playing for Arsenal Sub 21's as of late what does that say. If you go by that theory then i would put Pulisic and Flores over him right now because both have trained with the first team And Dortmund is much much better than Arsenal in development and in talent.

USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #159
Thursday April 9, 2015 7:42pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
There are just so many things in that paragraph that are so off base that it's not even worth commenting on or rebutting. But I digress, I'm a sucker for punishment and proving people wrong.

A - Who said that practice was the same as a game? Practice doesn't have to be the same as a game for a player to benefit from a practice and/or a better coach. I've talked about (somewhere in the last week on YA) the differences between training and playing in games and there is not just a one size fits all answer for that debate. Depending on the team/league you are on/in and their training habits it could be beneficial to be on a reserve squad and train with that team, then be on a team and getting first team minutes in a lesser league. But the opposite is also true (and it can be the same 2 leagues but different teams). In other words it could be more beneficial to the growth of a player to be on Barcelona's reserve squad and train with their first team and get no first team minutes than to be on a bad MLS team getting first team minutes. However you can be on Malaga not getting first team minutes and training with their first team and it not be as beneficial as playing regular minutes with LA Galaxy.

B-Arsenal isn't a top 25 team? Well that's interesting unless you think there are 10 teams outside of Europe that are better than Arsenal. They have been to the knockout stage of the Champions league (the supreme club competition in the world) for like a decade straight (that's the top 16 teams in Europe). The UEFA rankings have Arsenal 8th (so that means you need to find 18 teams around the world better than Arsenal. Club World ranking has Arsenal 6th (that includes the entire world). I can go on and on. But bottom-line Arsenal is a top 15 club in the world. No one disputes that. NO ONE. Which makes your comment that they aren't top 25 even MORE ridiculous.

C-Dortmund is better than Arsenal in development? In what world? I just scanned about 10+ lists of top academies (development) and not ONE even listed Dortmund. Almost ALL of them had Arsenal in the top 10. So no despite Dortmunds mad scientist coach and their run the previous 2 years, they are no where close to the best teams in terms of developing talent. They aren't even top 25 consideration! I think we all would agree that Klopp is one of the best coaches in the world and a better coach than Wenger. Yet Dortmund is in the bottom half of the Bundesliga table. Where Arsenal is sitting in 2nd in the EPL. Proof that Dortmunds talent isn't what Arsenal's is, besides that? However Dortmund's best players leaving over the last 3 years and they fall off the radar. Arsenal over 3-4 years (a few years ago) lost their best players and still always made the round of 16 of the Champions league. Dortmund better than Arsenal. Come on man you gotta Troll harder than that.
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Mojofc
Post #160
Thursday April 9, 2015 8:27pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Too many assumptions happening here.

Train all you want at Arsenal, Barcelona, United, etc. Odds are you won't be a top player.

Very promising youth players at all clubs are hyped from time to time, many of them end up failing to have decent careers, the jump from reserves to first team is huge.

That's not to say some players don't have higher odds of being a top player based on where they train.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
dolcem
Post #161
Thursday April 9, 2015 9:20pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,692
Original post from mmee

Dolcem and USAGunner-

...regarding last page's rebuttals to me on over-tinkering: ok, ok- can I retract that statement?


Respect. It takes cajones to change an opinion in public.

Original post from USAGunner

I think we all would agree that Klopp is one of the best coaches in the world and a better coach than Wenger. Yet Dortmund is in the bottom half of the Bundesliga table. Where Arsenal is sitting in 2nd in the EPL. Proof that Dortmunds talent isn't what Arsenal's is, besides that? However Dortmund's best players leaving over the last 3 years and they fall off the radar. Arsenal over 3-4 years (a few years ago) lost their best players and still always made the round of 16 of the Champions league. Dortmund better than Arsenal. Come on man you gotta Troll harder than that.


You have the facts right but got the wrong conclusion. Wenger is hand's down the best manager in the game. To achieve that kind of consistency on that budget is unprecedented in the history of the game. When he had money, he made Arsenal unbeatable. Since then, he has constantly had to sell his best players but still makes them a contender every year. He had finally put together a very good team in 2010-2011 and that Birmingham game ruined everything (that week they lost two more impossible games, dumping them out of two more tournaments), they lost their confidence and the season). Had Fabregas, Nasri, and Clichy stuck around they would have won silverware the next season. So he had to rebuild once again but always got them Round of 16 in the Champions league. But he is done rebuilding and watch Arsenal next season make a serious challenge at the title (yes, I'm calling it). Since they've hurdled over the injuries and early season difficulties, they've been the second best team in the Prem.

Jurgen Klopp was able to work his magic for a couple of seasons but when he sold his best players (or they got injured), he was unable to pull another rabbit out of his hat. Wenger loses his best players to transfers and injuries every year and yet still finishes top four and gets out of the CL group stage. He would never have the year Klopp is having this season. Klopp doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence (yet).
GET A CLUB TEAM
USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #162
Thursday April 9, 2015 9:48pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,304
dolcem,

I think Klopp and Dortmund are falling this year because they don't have the depth that Arsenal had a few years ago when they were selling all their players. (which goes back to the development and academies).

Sure Arsenal lost those players, but they were able to replace them with other capable players that are quite good, some of them were just young, but still very talented (Wilshere, Ramsey, Gibbs, Kolscielny, Walcott, Ox, etc). We weren't ever able (for a decade there after we built the new stadium) able to pay out to keep our best players and thus couldn't challenge at the top, but we still had the talent to finish top 4 (It's not as if Wenger was taking Stoke City caliber players and making the Champs league caliber teams).

Dortmund had a very good generation of players that were able to take them almost all the way to the top (Champs league runner-ups). They don't have the money to be able to keep those players (mostly from jumping ship to Munich), they don't have the talent/depth behind them to be able to keep up a Champs league position in the Bundesliga. Klopp is still one of the most sought after managers, at Dortmund they just don't have the academy or money to consistently put up top 4 finishes in the Bundesliga and/or make runs in the Champ league.

Arsenal constantly has injuries and just plugs and plays and stays in the top 4 regardless, because they have depth (even if people don't always recognize the names). Heck look at this year with Bellerin and Coquelin (Arsenal Academy guys) stepping up when injuries to Debuchy, etc threatened to derail our season.

Dortmund can't plug and play like that EVERY year (Arsenal always has a run of injuries...more than other teams). They just don't have the talent.

It's not that Wenger is a bad manager (he most certainly is a good manager). But where he shines is in development and training (he may be one of the better managers ever in that regard). But in terms of tactics, etc Klopp is certainly better.
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dolcem
Post #163
Friday April 10, 2015 12:19am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,692
Original post from USAGunner

dolcem,

I think Klopp and Dortmund are falling this year because they don't have the depth that Arsenal had a few years ago when they were selling all their players. (which goes back to the development and academies).

Sure Arsenal lost those players, but they were able to replace them with other capable players that are quite good, some of them were just young, but still very talented (Wilshere, Ramsey, Gibbs, Kolscielny, Walcott, Ox, etc). We weren't ever able (for a decade there after we built the new stadium) able to pay out to keep our best players and thus couldn't challenge at the top, but we still had the talent to finish top 4 (It's not as if Wenger was taking Stoke City caliber players and making the Champs league caliber teams).

Dortmund had a very good generation of players that were able to take them almost all the way to the top (Champs league runner-ups). They don't have the money to be able to keep those players (mostly from jumping ship to Munich), they don't have the talent/depth behind them to be able to keep up a Champs league position in the Bundesliga. Klopp is still one of the most sought after managers, at Dortmund they just don't have the academy or money to consistently put up top 4 finishes in the Bundesliga and/or make runs in the Champ league.

Arsenal constantly has injuries and just plugs and plays and stays in the top 4 regardless, because they have depth (even if people don't always recognize the names). Heck look at this year with Bellerin and Coquelin (Arsenal Academy guys) stepping up when injuries to Debuchy, etc threatened to derail our season.

Dortmund can't plug and play like that EVERY year (Arsenal always has a run of injuries...more than other teams). They just don't have the talent.

It's not that Wenger is a bad manager (he most certainly is a good manager). But where he shines is in development and training (he may be one of the better managers ever in that regard). But in terms of tactics, etc Klopp is certainly better.


Your explanation is anachronistic: those players were/are good, "better than Stoke's," in your words, because Wenger made them that way. They were all his picks, players that he spotted, bought and molded into the players that they are today. Most of them did not come from the academy. And Wenger actually spent less than Stoke did in the process...Arsenal made an average record of several million pounds on transfers every year from 2004 to 2009, unprecedented in the history of the Premier League (Stoke included). And since then he has been forced to sell his best players once again and continues to be able to unearth new gems (although not quite as well as before since Europe is so saturated with scouts these days).

Dortmund, on the other hand, does not have the depth Arsenal does because Klopp is not as good at identifying and developing talent as Wenger is. His replacements for the players he sold were inadequate. He has been in charge at Dortmund for seven seasons and just about every player there was picked by him. If Dortmund doesn't have depth it's his fault for not being able to adequately reinforce the squad.

I don't know what you mean by "tactics, etc." and it's quite a subjective claim that Klopp is better, but on what grounds do you draw such a conclusion? Dortmund has played the same way pretty much for the last several seasons...a 4-5-1 with a high-tempo, very German style. I don't think you can argue that they have really tactically evolved much at all, and this is one of the reasons for their current struggles. Other teams have figured them out. Wenger, on the other hand, has had his Arsenal teams play a variety of different formations and styles over the years, although always with their trademark positive approach to the game. Tactics are not formations, but Wenger's ability to adapt over the years (and remember, the Premier League was a very different place when he first took over), for me, proves that he is better than Klopp in this department, if it were possible to measure. Klopp took Dortmund to five straight Champions League appearances and his streak will be broken this season. Wenger, despite constantly losing his best players to transfer and injury, will make it 18.
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admsghs27
Post #164
Friday April 10, 2015 1:48am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 5,980
@mojofc +100 agree 100% you could train and practice with top clubs in the world it doesn't mean you will be a great soccer player. 100s and thousands have gone trough those clubs training for years and even gotten first team experience but never became great. I mean zelalem is 18 if he was that good as people hype him up he should be a regular by now in the first team specially with a team like Arsenal that likes playing young players. I mean players like gibbs, wilshere, walcott, chamberlain, chambers, welbeck, gnabry ect... Were already playing extensive first team soccer at ages 17, 18, 19. And those aren't world stars, why isnt zelalem playing regular first team minutes then ? I get it and know he is a bright prospect but let's not hype him up yet. As funny as it sounds Freddy adu was a star internationally when he was zelalems age.

hamsamwich
Post #165
Friday April 10, 2015 3:15am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,455
@dolcem- all arsenal fans hate wenger, it's a true oddity. Wenger is one of the best of the last 20-30 years, hell all time. His methods have been copied by so many.

And don't feed the troll- we all know GZ is in good hands and will show up in a USA shirt at the u-20s this summer. His age group with EPB, CCV, Hyndman, Soñora, Rubin... very talented, and Zelalam is the rug that will tie our room together. I was sort of surprised he didn't get an invite to train with the squad in Denmark, surely Wenger would allow one of his ex players (JK) a favor or two.

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