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hamsamwich
Post #241
Tuesday January 12, 2021 11:38pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,637
Original post from bjelks

I don't think Championship and Mid table Bundesliga are the same level.

But if he makes a move more power to him.

It's kinda funny to think he deserves an auto starter spot and even the top players in the world don't get that privilege.

It's up to Gregg to set the standard and to evaluate players, and it's on his head if we don't get results because he gives preferential treatment to players who play at subpar levels.
that's exactly it. The pool has been built, it's going to be time when the games start to see results. A senior player like Morris carries more responsibility - he needs to perform well straight away in qualifying.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #242
Tuesday January 12, 2021 11:55pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,200
Original post from bjelks

I don't think Championship and Mid table Bundesliga are the same level.

But if he makes a move more power to him.

It's kinda funny to think he deserves an auto starter spot and even the top players in the world don't get that privilege.

It's up to Gregg to set the standard and to evaluate players, and it's on his head if we don't get results because he gives preferential treatment to players who play at subpar levels.


No Bundesliga is better but I think he can still play at that level. I never said he deserved a starting spot. I simply wouldn't move unless it was in their plans for me to be their starter at the position as opposed to depth. Obviously you have to preform once you get there. Of course top level players move with the expectation that they will start, and yes they also have to preform once they get there.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #243
Wednesday January 13, 2021 2:09am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,652
Original post from bjelks

I don't think Championship and Mid table Bundesliga are the same level.

But if he makes a move more power to him.

It's kinda funny to think he deserves an auto starter spot and even the top players in the world don't get that privilege.

It's up to Gregg to set the standard and to evaluate players, and it's on his head if we don't get results because he gives preferential treatment to players who play at subpar levels.


Hmmm.... don't think he is an auto starter, but what top players in the world are you talking about? Messi auto starter, Ronaldo auto starter, Van Dijk auto start, Salah auto starter, Suarez auto starter, Mbappe auto starter, Pulisic auto starter, Hazard auto starter, Kroos auto starter, I can go on.

Morris should make a move, so he can show that he can play well in Europe. Personally I think he would fit right in at RB Leipzig.

Dave
Post #244
Wednesday January 13, 2021 4:49am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,184
If Morris wants to go to Europe and challenge himself fine. If he wants to stay in MLS that's fine too. He just has to understand that if he stays in MLS than his time with the USMNT will likely be shorter than if he moved abroad. Simple fact of the matter is that someone playing in MLS is not facing the same level of competition as someone playing in one of the Big-5 Leagues of Europe.
Yes, it's theoretically possible to stay relevant in MLS like Donovan did, but its going to become harder and harder to justify. Donovan was arguably the best player of his generation and his contemporaries were playing for low (to mid table) clubs in Europe. The current generation of players in Europe are playing for some of the Top clubs in each league. Consider Dempsey @ Fulham in 2006 compared to Pulisic @ Chelsea today. Boca @ Rennais compared to Richards @ Bayern. Bradley @ Mönchengladbach compared to McKennie @ Juve.
Just saying the bar has been raised. Playing in MLS wont prohibit a player from making the WC Team, but your odds are going to be better if you're playing in Europe.

Samtom23
Post #245
Wednesday January 13, 2021 5:17am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 558
Original post from Dave

If Morris wants to go to Europe and challenge himself fine. If he wants to stay in MLS that's fine too. He just has to understand that if he stays in MLS than his time with the USMNT will likely be shorter than if he moved abroad. Simple fact of the matter is that someone playing in MLS is not facing the same level of competition as someone playing in one of the Big-5 Leagues of Europe.
Yes, it's theoretically possible to stay relevant in MLS like Donovan did, but its going to become harder and harder to justify. Donovan was arguably the best player of his generation and his contemporaries were playing for low (to mid table) clubs in Europe. The current generation of players in Europe are playing for some of the Top clubs in each league. Consider Dempsey @ Fulham in 2006 compared to Pulisic @ Chelsea today. Boca @ Rennais compared to Richards @ Bayern. Bradley @ Mönchengladbach compared to McKennie @ Juve.
Just saying the bar has been raised. Playing in MLS wont prohibit a player from making the WC Team, but your odds are going to be better if you're playing in Europe.


Part of this is perception and economics. The world is waking up that America has some talent. Also, because the talent is either raw or unrecognized, they can get that talent cheaply compared to European and South American counterparts. Also, the marketing involved. I would be curious to see how many Mckennie jerseys sold this past year and how many more Americans tuned into watching Juve, Chelsea, Bayern, Werder Bremen, etc.

As far as Morris playing in Europe, I am sure he could but it would be a matter of matching him with his style of player. Looking at the Harrison and Almiron, I think Morris could play for a team like West Ham, Newcastle, Brighton and Hove Albion. Is he an auto starter for them? No.

Dave
Post #246
Wednesday January 13, 2021 5:36am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,184
Samtom23 - I guess that's my point. If his ability level in European leagues is a sometime starter for a mid-level team, Is it realistic to think he'd beat out a starter/sometime starter for a top 4 table club when he joined up with the USMNT?
Morris's current projected/favored position is as a wide attacker, so he's in direct competition with Pulisic, Reyna, Weah...all who are younger and playing consistently for better than Mid-Table.
IMO Morris is on par with Boyd & Mueller. The 3 of them will be competing for that 4th roster spot, while trying to fend off guys like Uli, Konrad, and the next wave of young players.
If Morris is playing in Europe he'll at least be facing stiffer competition on a consistent basis....and performance comparisons against same/like opposition can be made more easily (perception).

bjelks
Post #247
Wednesday January 13, 2021 4:34pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,995
Original post from hamsamwich

that's exactly it. The pool has been built, it's going to be time when the games start to see results. A senior player like Morris carries more responsibility - he needs to perform well straight away in qualifying.


Kinda, but the pool is always expanding based on the level of the players and their development.

If Morris is ripping up MLS and a younger player is contributing in the Championship, Eredivisie or France or just a higher level, he has earned the call up over him
goalsense
bjelks
Post #248
Wednesday January 13, 2021 4:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,995
Original post from 2tone

Hmmm.... don't think he is an auto starter, but what top players in the world are you talking about? Messi auto starter, Ronaldo auto starter, Van Dijk auto start, Salah auto starter, Suarez auto starter, Mbappe auto starter, Pulisic auto starter, Hazard auto starter, Kroos auto starter, I can go on.

Morris should make a move, so he can show that he can play well in Europe. Personally I think he would fit right in at RB Leipzig.


Those guys I wouldn't say are auto starters, they just prove their worth every day in training and leave no doubts. They're extremely competitive and have been since they were kids, Morris doesn't have that cloth.

I don't think Morris has anywhere close to the quality of a RB Leipzig player, I'd bet money he doesn't go to a top 4 side in a top 5 league.
His technique is too flawed and his brain doesn't work fast enough and he's too old to catch up.
There's not a player on Leipzig that Morris compares to.

If he gets to the level, I'll shut up but he's mid tier championship or bottom table Bundesliga at best
goalsense
bjelks
Post #249
Wednesday January 13, 2021 4:43pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,995
Original post from Dave

If Morris wants to go to Europe and challenge himself fine. If he wants to stay in MLS that's fine too. He just has to understand that if he stays in MLS than his time with the USMNT will likely be shorter than if he moved abroad. Simple fact of the matter is that someone playing in MLS is not facing the same level of competition as someone playing in one of the Big-5 Leagues of Europe.
Yes, it's theoretically possible to stay relevant in MLS like Donovan did, but its going to become harder and harder to justify. Donovan was arguably the best player of his generation and his contemporaries were playing for low (to mid table) clubs in Europe. The current generation of players in Europe are playing for some of the Top clubs in each league. Consider Dempsey @ Fulham in 2006 compared to Pulisic @ Chelsea today. Boca @ Rennais compared to Richards @ Bayern. Bradley @ Mönchengladbach compared to McKennie @ Juve.
Just saying the bar has been raised. Playing in MLS wont prohibit a player from making the WC Team, but your odds are going to be better if you're playing in Europe.


I would disagree on Donovan. John Obrien was the best player of that generation then Demps.

There's no other country in the world where playing at a lower level doesn't prohibit you from making the national team.

If US wants to compete for trophies, it has to catch up
goalsense
cudevil
Post #250
Wednesday January 13, 2021 6:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,206
Original post from bjelks

I would disagree on Donovan. John Obrien was the best player of that generation then Demps.

There's no other country in the world where playing at a lower level doesn't prohibit you from making the national team.

If US wants to compete for trophies, it has to catch up


Dude, no, just no. Demps was good, but remains a close second to Donovan. Donovan washed out of the Bundesliga, but had a some nice stints with Everton, showing he could absolutely play in a Big 5 league had he wanted to. But the difference is that Donovan performed at a high level for the Nats for longer than Demps. Demps scored big goals, but none were bigger than Landon's vs. Nigeria, or even Donovan's goal against Mexico in 2002.

O'Brien belongs on the all "what could have been team", but isn't within shouting distance of the conversation of "best of the generation".

bjelks
Post #251
Thursday January 14, 2021 12:40am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,995
Original post from cudevil

Dude, no, just no. Demps was good, but remains a close second to Donovan. Donovan washed out of the Bundesliga, but had a some nice stints with Everton, showing he could absolutely play in a Big 5 league had he wanted to. But the difference is that Donovan performed at a high level for the Nats for longer than Demps. Demps scored big goals, but none were bigger than Landon's vs. Nigeria, or even Donovan's goal against Mexico in 2002.

O'Brien belongs on the all "what could have been team", but isn't within shouting distance of the conversation of "best of the generation".


I think we look at the game differently and that's ok.

If someone is judging players by their quality, it's obvious that Obrien and Dempsey were better.

Donovan has said on record that Obrien is the best usmnt player ever.

If you're not evaluating with your eyes or know what to look for, I can't explain it to you.
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #252
Thursday January 14, 2021 12:51am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,637
@bjelks- the pool always changes, but for the most part there have been like 50 or more guys called into camps during Greggs time. There are some who haven't been called but most have. I'd say Gregg has sort of decided which games certain players will play in 2021 (gold cup or qualifying or nations league or Olympic qualifiers/Olympics).... there are 14 qualifiers so there is definitely room for someone to show well in a lesser tournament like nations league and be on the qualifying squad for the back end of qualifying in 2022. Someone like Morris has to perform right now or he won't be on the team for too much longer. This is a make or break year for Morris and the national team as far as I'm concerned.

Philip
Post #253
Thursday January 14, 2021 6:38am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 59
Original post from bjelks

I think we look at the game differently and that's ok.

If someone is judging players by their quality, it's obvious that Obrien and Dempsey were better.

Donovan has said on record that Obrien is the best usmnt player ever.

If you're not evaluating with your eyes or know what to look for, I can't explain it to you.

I have to say you are right on this one. Donovan may have better stats with the national team but his numbers are boosted by his staying in MLS. Donovan played in a lot of meaningless friendlies while the European based players were left with their clubs. These games against weaker opponents where he was clearly the best player on the field allowed him to accumulate numbers that he didn't really earn. Had he gone to Europe the way Dempsey did he would not have the numbers he does. Dempsey was the better player. Obrien may have been more talented than both of them but his body never allowed him to fulfill his potential. Based on what they accomplished Dempsey is number one.

Samtom23
Post #254
Thursday January 14, 2021 11:53am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 558
Original post from Philip

I have to say you are right on this one. Donovan may have better stats with the national team but his numbers are boosted by his staying in MLS. Donovan played in a lot of meaningless friendlies while the European based players were left with their clubs. These games against weaker opponents where he was clearly the best player on the field allowed him to accumulate numbers that he didn't really earn. Had he gone to Europe the way Dempsey did he would not have the numbers he does. Dempsey was the better player. Obrien may have been more talented than both of them but his body never allowed him to fulfill his potential. Based on what they accomplished Dempsey is number one.


Personal preference-Dempsey

He wasn't the most talented but he made the most of what he had. Also, my perception he was always overlooked in his early career.

cudevil
Post #255
Thursday January 14, 2021 6:32pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,206
Original post from Philip

I have to say you are right on this one. Donovan may have better stats with the national team but his numbers are boosted by his staying in MLS. Donovan played in a lot of meaningless friendlies while the European based players were left with their clubs. These games against weaker opponents where he was clearly the best player on the field allowed him to accumulate numbers that he didn't really earn. Had he gone to Europe the way Dempsey did he would not have the numbers he does. Dempsey was the better player. Obrien may have been more talented than both of them but his body never allowed him to fulfill his potential. Based on what they accomplished Dempsey is number one.


I disagree with this in the context of the national team. Donovan tormented Mexico. He scored huge goals in the WC. Demps scored more big goals for Fulham than with the Nats, but he came through internationally as well.

The idea that Landon played in a bunch of meaningless friendlies to pad stats doesn't track either. Donovan averaged 10.7 national team appearances per year. Dempsey was 10.1. You can't tell me that somehow there were more "meaningful" games for Dempsey, given how their national careers overlapped.

And I give full credit to Demps for going to Fulham and constantly having to prove himself over and over again with every new manager there. He scored huge goals for them. But we should also realize that the moment he took a step up in class to Tottenham, he struggled for PT, got loaned back to Fulham, then jumped back to the MLS for the money.

Demps vs. Donovan is at least close. O'Brien isn't in the conversation. He was a great prospect, and had he been injury free, and made 75+ appearances for the nats, maybe we could talk about him. But a guy, no matter how talented, that only had 32 caps doesn't

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