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dolcem
Post #196
Sunday July 3, 2016 11:12am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

How does being in Dortmunds youth academy for a year make him a product of said academy? He is more a product of the USSF youth academy system.


I'm not trying to make this an us vs. them debate, I'm just explaining to you how European clubs will look at it. They see a guy who played in Dortmund's youth academy for a year (where he played before is irrelevant) and then broke into the first team at an extremely young age. Not only is this really impressive, other players that have gone down a similar path have turned out to be world class players worth tens of millions. A club could very well be willing to shell out a lot of money on him because he has the potential to reach that level.

Morris, on the other hand, is an MLS player, and no MLS player has ever become good enough to be worth anywhere near 30 million. There still isn't evidence yet that the league can produce a player of that level. Thus, no team will be willing to spend that kind of money on him.

Original post from blaise213

Agree but we have an idiot coach! God I hope the rumors to England are true


You're starting to turn into adms...wtf does Klinsmann have to do with Morris' development or this thread? We get it, you're mad he doesn't pick your FIFA lineups with 10 attacking midfielders (including five dual-nationals that will never play for us), but you don't need to bring it up in every single discussion on here. And the funny part is that if it weren't for Klinsmann, neither you nor anyone else here would have even heard of Morris.
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dunlopp9987
Post #197
Sunday July 3, 2016 1:27pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,647
Original post from blaise213

Agree but we have an idiot coach! God I hope the rumors to England are true


Legitimately starting to act like a spoiled child. It's fucking hilarious.
COYB!!
goods
Post #198
Sunday July 3, 2016 3:34pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 565
Original post from Dave

@goods - We are not going to see a combination of Wood & Morris anytime in the near future. Since Morris has a similar style and some of the same attributes as Wood.
IMO expect Morris to be used predominantly be used as a backup/replacement for Wood. This will allow the team to play the same way in the event Wood is injured or suspended for any reason.
Additionally you have to consider the number of attacking options that we have or are beginning to emerge. Dempsey & Jozy aren't done yet and provide significant experience. Wood & Zardes are pushing to keep starting roles. Johannsson & Gyau are trying to get healthy & return to International level. Then there are a handful of players who are just breaking into the US squad....Pulisic, Morris, Rubin; and couple of promising prospects right behind them....Perez & Wright
For a change we have some real options developing at attacking positions. Formations, versatility, player form, and (obviously) player health will determine which attackers JK decides to use. But I just don't see JK rolling out 2 strikers who are so similar at the same time.


They may play a similar game, and are used similarly the same for their clubs, I think they will match up well together. Morris may very well be a great super sub with his speed, but why is it a bad thing to use two player with speed and strength. They can switch up roles and cause some serious issues for backlines.

I am a big Wright promoter, and think he will be a surprise admission for 2018. But, I doubt Wright or Perez will be used in the HEX. As for Pulisic and Zardes both of them will be used on the wings. Gyau is some body I would love to see, but I expect him as a sub or used wide not up top. There is a rule in sports. Somebody with an injury past has an injury future. I would not look at either player until they can prove their health over a long term.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #199
Sunday July 3, 2016 4:02pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,595
Original post from dolcem

I'm not trying to make this an us vs. them debate, I'm just explaining to you how European clubs will look at it. They see a guy who played in Dortmund's youth academy for a year (where he played before is irrelevant) and then broke into the first team at an extremely young age. Not only is this really impressive, other players that have gone down a similar path have turned out to be world class players worth tens of millions. A club could very well be willing to shell out a lot of money on him because he has the potential to reach that level.

Morris, on the other hand, is an MLS player, and no MLS player has ever become good enough to be worth anywhere near 30 million. There still isn't evidence yet that the league can produce a player of that level. Thus, no team will be willing to spend that kind of money on him.

You're starting to turn into adms...wtf does Klinsmann have to do with Morris' development or this thread? We get it, you're mad he doesn't pick your FIFA lineups with 10 attacking midfielders (including five dual-nationals that will never play for us), but you don't need to bring it up in every single discussion on here. And the funny part is that if it weren't for Klinsmann, neither you nor anyone else here would have even heard of Morris.


I Knew about Morris two years before he impressed Jurgen at the pre WC camp in 2014.

And your previous post had nothing about how you are trying to explain how European teams will look at it. It seemed you genuinely thought Pulisic is a Dortmund product.

Pulisic was playing the same way he does for Dortmund when he was 14 and 15 with his youth academy and the US U17 team. And yes it is relevant that he developed in the US academy system. Just like Zelalem developed in the US academy system before going to Arsenal.

dolcem
Post #200
Sunday July 3, 2016 5:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

I Knew about Morris two years before he impressed Jurgen at the pre WC camp in 2014.

And your previous post had nothing about how you are trying to explain how European teams will look at it. It seemed you genuinely thought Pulisic is a Dortmund product.

Pulisic was playing the same way he does for Dortmund when he was 14 and 15 with his youth academy and the US U17 team. And yes it is relevant that he developed in the US academy system. Just like Zelalem developed in the US academy system before going to Arsenal.


I don't really follow youth academy players and I didn't know exactly what year he went to Dortmund. Sorry.

But please explain to me why where he played before Dortmund's youth academy is relevant to the discussion.

If I'm a European club, why would I spend 30 million euros on a 23-24 year old player in a league that has never produced anyone worth half that much? On the other hand, if a young kid comes out of the youth academy of a club in a top league and starts playing for the senior team at age 17, and this club has produced world class talent, and by say 19 or 20 is playing really well, he will be worth 30 million euros.

Our opinions on how good these players are are completely irrelevant. You may think that MLS players are undervalued, and that's fine. I'm just pointing out how the market works. As long as Morris is in the US, he'll never be worth more than 10-15 million tops (and the real number is more like between 5-8). Unless of course he scores 5 goals in the World Cup or something. Now in 20 years or so, if world class talent has come out of the MLS, than the valuation of MLS players will change accordingly. But that hasn't happened yet. It's simple economics.
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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #201
Sunday July 3, 2016 8:05pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,595
Original post from dolcem

I don't really follow youth academy players and I didn't know exactly what year he went to Dortmund. Sorry.

But please explain to me why where he played before Dortmund's youth academy is relevant to the discussion.

If I'm a European club, why would I spend 30 million euros on a 23-24 year old player in a league that has never produced anyone worth half that much? On the other hand, if a young kid comes out of the youth academy of a club in a top league and starts playing for the senior team at age 17, and this club has produced world class talent, and by say 19 or 20 is playing really well, he will be worth 30 million euros.

Our opinions on how good these players are are completely irrelevant. You may think that MLS players are undervalued, and that's fine. I'm just pointing out how the market works. As long as Morris is in the US, he'll never be worth more than 10-15 million tops (and the real number is more like between 5-8). Unless of course he scores 5 goals in the World Cup or something. Now in 20 years or so, if world class talent has come out of the MLS, than the valuation of MLS players will change accordingly. But that hasn't happened yet. It's simple economics.


How is it relevant to the discussion? Seriously? It's relevant because if a youth player is developed in an MLS academy or even a USSF academy and then said player is bought from MLS later for 30 million dollars! Then obviously the development system is working, no? Which puts more confidence in big euro teams to scout even more MLS players/ academy players. Seems logical on how it's relevant.

goods
Post #202
Sunday July 3, 2016 8:50pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 565
I see 2tones point. Plus, watch how Mexico and Mexican teams are scouting the academies. I know you are all talking about Pulisic, but I still think if Morris has a great Hex scores more than 2 goals in the World Cup, he can get close to 20 million. He missed an opportunity in Copa but that can be made up. Once you start seeing him in commercials, he becomes incredibly valuable to a European team wanting to sell some merchandise and give him playing time.

TheTruth
Post #203
Sunday July 3, 2016 10:24pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 954
Original post from 2tone

I Knew about Morris two years before he impressed Jurgen at the pre WC camp in 2014.

And your previous post had nothing about how you are trying to explain how European teams will look at it. It seemed you genuinely thought Pulisic is a Dortmund product.

Pulisic was playing the same way he does for Dortmund when he was 14 and 15 with his youth academy and the US U17 team. And yes it is relevant that he developed in the US academy system. Just like Zelalem developed in the US academy system before going to Arsenal.


Exactly. This is part of the excitement behind guys like Pulisic and Zelalem. They're made in the USA. This is why I have to keep telling Dolcem that his main narrative has always been 20 years behind. Not only are our youth systems retardley better today than they were 40, 30, and 20 years ago, they're much, much better than even 10 years ago. You youngsters out there just need to accept this as fact.

dolcem
Post #204
Sunday July 3, 2016 10:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

How is it relevant to the discussion? Seriously? It's relevant because if a youth player is developed in an MLS academy or even a USSF academy and then said player is bought from MLS later for 30 million dollars! Then obviously the development system is working, no? Which puts more confidence in big euro teams to scout even more MLS players/ academy players. Seems logical on how it's relevant.


You need to go back and read what I wrote because you've missed what we're even talking about. At no point did I make any type of comment on whether or not the development system is "working." Not everything is an MLS vs. the rest of the world debate.

We were discussing Morris' value in the transfer market. You said that after a couple of good seasons, he could be worth 30 million. We pointed out to you that this number is absurd. The MLS has never produced a player worth anywhere near that amount of money so no team is going to spend anywhere close to that. Pulisic, on the other hand, spent over a year with Dortmund's youth academy and is playing Bundesliga matches at the age of 17. Because players with similar histories have turned out to be worth more than that, if Pulisic starts to tear it up in the next couple of seasons, he could be worth over 30 million (of course that is a massive if). A 19-20 year old attacking midfielder playing well for one of the top Bundesliga teams commands that kind of money in the transfer market.

You may think that MLS players are undervalued, or that Bundesliga players are overvalued, and that's fine. But we're just telling you how the market works. Sure, in some years, we could see young MLS players go for 30 million. But that won't happen until a player comes out of the MLS and takes Europe by storm (and young kids like Pulisic going to European academies and succeeding won't really change their perception of the MLS; MLS alums have to do that...if you don't get this, think of it this way: Croatia has produced some amazing footballers over the years but you won't see a 23-24 year old from the Croatian league go for anywhere near 30 million). Once that happens, the market value of young guys in the league will increase. But I think we'll need a couple players like this before we see those kinds of transfer fees. I mean one of the best attacking players the MLS produced in recent years as Brek Shea. MLS players are still, at this point, a gamble for European clubs, and not worth more than risking a few million (in their eyes, not mine or yours). And has a Liga MX player ever gotten anywhere near that? I think we're still a ways off.

Having said that, if Morris tears it up at the World Cup, he will see his transfer value increase significantly, But he'd have to play very, very well for teams to throw that kind of money at him.

I'm really excited about Pulisic though, he has the potential to be a great player.
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dolcem
Post #205
Sunday July 3, 2016 11:05pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

How is it relevant to the discussion? Seriously? It's relevant because if a youth player is developed in an MLS academy or even a USSF academy and then said player is bought from MLS later for 30 million dollars! Then obviously the development system is working, no? Which puts more confidence in big euro teams to scout even more MLS players/ academy players. Seems logical on how it's relevant.


I've reread this and am trying to understand your argument. Is it that once Pulisic is successful in the Bundesliga, Morris' value will go up to 30 million? Because that's not what you said the first time. It's still an absurd number for a few reasons. Firstly, youth players don't shape clubs' perception of the quality of leagues. It's not like after Ibrahimovic and Suarez turned into superstars the value of players in the Swedish and Uruguayan leagues skyrocketed. And there's a massive difference between a 16 year old and 23 year old. That's basically a lifetime in soccer. A 16 year old is nowhere near done developing, and you can bring one from any country if he's good enough to play for your academy. A 23 year old, on the other hand, is nearly done, and if he's not in a top league already, he probably isn't going to become world class (especially if he's an attacking player). Name one example of a 23 year old who came from a second tier league and ended up being worth huge sums of money. Now you might disagree with this logic, but that's irrelevant. I'm just explaining how scouts perceive the matter.

If Pulisic tears it up in Germany, European clubs will scout American youth teams more heavily. But it won't change their perceptions of the MLS, just like Belgium's golden generation hasn't changed their perceptions of the Belgian league. The sooner kids end up in the top leagues, the more they are worth. The longer they stay in less competitive leagues, the less they are worth. It may be unfair, but that's how the market works. And on top of that, there's the whole issue of the MLS' style of play, which isn't really seen as the ideal environment for a young player.

And like I said, it's going to take more than one player. Because for every Clint Dempsey there's a Brek Shea. That risk will depress MLS transfer values for a while. 30 million is too much to gamble on a player that would have to make a massive adjustment to European football.
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Dave
Post #206
Sunday July 3, 2016 11:17pm

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,111
[quote]Original post from goods

They may play a similar game, and are used similarly the same for their clubs, I think they will match up well together. Morris may very well be a great super sub with his speed, but why is it a bad thing to use two player with speed and strength. They can switch up roles and cause some serious issues for backlines./quote]

I think you missing the points I was trying to make....
1) Based on the attackers have currently as well as what is projected for the future this US Team is leaning more & more towards either a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 formation. This limits the possibility of Morris & Wood featuring as a two striker pairing.
2) If and when a 2 striker system is used Morris is still likely to be the 4th striker option. Dempsey, Jozy, & Wood are all still ahead of him. Making his use with Wood unlikely in the near future.
3) While I'm not opposed to using 2 strikers with similar skill sets....most coaches/managers prefer to very their attack by having strikers that have skills that are Complimentary to each other but have different strengths.

hamsamwich
Post #207
Monday July 4, 2016 1:13am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,441
If Pulisic had played for Philadelphia Union, he would have nowhere near the international acclaim. Jordan Morris doing well in MLS is expected as he impressed coaches in the bundesliga in his training sessions, after multiple appearances for the USA. His transfer value dropped in my opinion at Seattle, if he was scoring goals he would be worth more at Werder Bremen.

goods
Post #208
Monday July 4, 2016 1:16am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 565
I have a feeling Dempsey will retire after he gets the goal scoring record, or will be used as sub, lIke Mexico did with Blanco in 2010. Age catches up quickly, especially if there is nothing left to prove.

I have always been a fan of Jozy, but past is pro-log with him. Last three major tournaments he has either not been able to make the 23 or could not finish the tournament due to injury. He should be in a position where he has to prove himself healthy and to withstand a stretch of games before Kinsman can trust him again. I am not sure how much longer he will be out this season, but I doubt he will be with the NT until the January camp, and would be surprised to see Toronto release him since they do not have to.

I know they moved to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. But they also seemed to have played some 4-1-3-2 with Dempsey playing underneath wood. In my opinion the players on this team in the future are better suited for this formation.

For 2017 the forward ranking will be Wood, Morris, Zardes (but he will be used as winger) Dempsey, Altidore, Kieswetter,

goods
Post #209
Monday July 4, 2016 4:08am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 565
@hamsamwich part of Pulisic's value is the unkown. Dortmound did a good job of not over exposing him allowing for a hype machine to build. While everybody wanted JK to run him out for 90 minutes in multiple games, JK protected that hype machine in not over exposing his weaknesses. Has Morris value dropped, probably. However, do u think he would have still started after struggling in the first four games. I highly doubt it. Morris will be a record selling prospect

hamsamwich
Post #210
Monday July 4, 2016 5:04am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,441
Record selling for MLS maybe... Does anyone know what the top transfer fee even is for a player that went from MLS to any other league? I have no idea. I love Morris' runs and movement and he will go abroad when he wants. I love the fact he plays all the time for Seattle but it's not the same thing as if he was scoring in the bundesliga.

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