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blaise213
Post #16
Tuesday December 16, 2014 9:03am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,135
Original post from jabbajolly

Good original post.

I'm guessing Bedoya will stay out wide, but if he drifts in, that's fine too


No, Klinsmann will put Tim Ream out wide in the midfield....

My repetitive list:

Shawn Parker
Bjorn maars johnsen
Robert Kenedy Nunes do Nascimento

dolcem
Post #17
Tuesday December 16, 2014 1:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Guys this is NOT Fifa, RAM/LAM/RW aren't official terms, that's just what they use in video games.

Most of us got into soccer from Fifa and it's very obvious that it shapes a huge role in how people in the US understand soccer. And it doesn't help. I will admit that video games got me into soccer as well but that was World Cup 98. And since then I've watched enough and listened to enough good foreign commentary on the sport and don't play video games except on rare occasions.

Really excited about Green and Koroma. Shea's USNT career I think is pretty much done, even if our winger options are horrible. My guess is Gatt will have lost some pace and that's all he has. Nagbe is a good MLS player but 24 for a winger isn't young. He won't get much better and he doesn't have the quality to trouble top international sides.

All in all though our option in the attacking midfield are dreadful. No replacements for Donovan and Dempsey. FJ is needed at LB and while he is a great player, he just isn't naturally great in the attacking third. Bedoya just doesn't replicate his club performances for the NT, even when he gets to play in the middle or on the left. I think it's because he's a lot like Dempsey. He can play at a high level and can do some damage when he has good players around him, but he doesn't have the quality to really force the issue himself. He can't drag our attack forward when it is weighed down by people like Zusi.
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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #18
Tuesday December 16, 2014 6:01pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,582
Original post from dolcem

Guys this is NOT Fifa, RAM/LAM/RW aren't official terms, that's just what they use in video games.

Most of us got into soccer from Fifa and it's very obvious that it shapes a huge role in how people in the US understand soccer. And it doesn't help. I will admit that video games got me into soccer as well but that was World Cup 98. And since then I've watched enough and listened to enough good foreign commentary on the sport and don't play video games except on rare occasions.

Really excited about Green and Koroma. Shea's USNT career I think is pretty much done, even if our winger options are horrible. My guess is Gatt will have lost some pace and that's all he has. Nagbe is a good MLS player but 24 for a winger isn't young. He won't get much better and he doesn't have the quality to trouble top international sides.

All in all though our option in the attacking midfield are dreadful. No replacements for Donovan and Dempsey. FJ is needed at LB and while he is a great player, he just isn't naturally great in the attacking third. Bedoya just doesn't replicate his club performances for the NT, even when he gets to play in the middle or on the left. I think it's because he's a lot like Dempsey. He can play at a high level and can do some damage when he has good players around him, but he doesn't have the quality to really force the issue himself. He can't drag our attack forward when it is weighed down by people like Zusi.


So what are the "official" terms? I played soccer from 6 years old on and I have frequently used those terms throughout my soccer playing days. I have said RAM/LAM, LW/RW, RM/LM, RF/LF, CAM/CF, Striker/FWD. It's funny people seem to think there are some type of "official" terms for every position. Just like Centerback=centerhalf, or CDM=DM, or outside back=fullback, RW/LW=winger. A RAM or LAM is different than a winger/wide FWD.

There are distinctions between the certain type of players who play those roles. A winger traditionally is a player who stay's wide and gets chalk on their boots from center stripe to endline stripe, takes on the opposing fullback and whips in crosses, and they generally don't track back into their defensive third much because that was the duty of the fullback.(Brek Shea, Beasley, Ralston, John Barnes).

A wide FWD is like a winger but is a player who stay's higher up the pitch, doesn't defend much at all(Christiano Ronaldo, Thomas Mueller, Arjen Robben, Gareth Bale), and generally looks to score versus whipping in crosses.

RAM's/LAM's/RM's/LM's: Are players that are both adept at taking on players as well as combining with players coming inside( Ribery, Hazard, Iniesta, KAKA, Donovan, Dempsey, Nagbe). They generally defend a bit more, but are still expected to carry the attack and combine with the lone striker and CAM, who look to open up defenses with passes, crossing etc... as well as look to score.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #19
Tuesday December 16, 2014 6:11pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,582
Original post from chris_thebassplayer

My sleeper picks to join the mix.... Pelosi on the left... Pulisic on the right.

2016 probably to soon for Pulisic, but i think he'll be on an accelerated track, especially if they want to use him as an outside mid-creator similar to the role LD had with the nats.

Pelosi started for the reserves last game. He got thirty minutes in the two previous reserve games. He's coming along, getting increasing playing time. Can't say enough about having an actual natural lefty playing the left side.

Both have razor sharp soccer IQs.


Form what I understand Pelosi plays more of a CM/CAM role with Liverpool's reserves. But yeah if he continues to progress you could see him in the mix. I think Pelosi will definitely be t eh Olympic team.

Pulisic will have to really break into Borussia Dortmunds team in the coming years to even get considered for the USMNT. The kid is talented, but the USMNT will have far more options than what they had when Donovan was bursting onto the scene.

admsghs27
Post #20
Tuesday December 16, 2014 6:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Original post from 2tone

Form what I understand Pelosi plays more of a CM/CAM role with Liverpool's reserves. But yeah if he continues to progress you could see him in the mix. I think Pelosi will definitely be t eh Olympic team.

Pulisic will have to really break into Borussia Dortmunds team in the coming years to even get considered for the USMNT. The kid is talented, but the USMNT will have far more options than what they had when Donovan was bursting onto the scene.


I don't think pulisic has to break into dortmunds first team to get consideration. I mean JK calls in reserve guys also. A great example would be Julian green. Others were morris, Gyau to an extent.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #21
Tuesday December 16, 2014 6:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,467
Original post from admsghs27

I don't think pulisic has to break into dortmunds first team to get consideration. I mean JK calls in reserve guys also. A great example would be Julian green. Others were morris, Gyau to an extent.


+1, JK seems to care more about what you as a player are capable of producing on the pitch rather than your club situation. Given CP's recent performances, I wouldn't be surprised to see him called into the preGC camp.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #22
Tuesday December 16, 2014 8:04pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,582
It's going to be a few years before Pulisic will be playing for Dortmunds reserves. Junior Flores barely gets time with Dortmunds reserves.

IS it a possibility Pulisic breaks into the USMNT before the WC in 2018? Possibly, but it's just as possible that he flames out at Dortmund. I don't understand this fascination to bring in 16 year olds to USMNT camps.

The kid has talent, but also has a long ways to go physically and mentally.

navi8132
New York
Post #23
Tuesday December 16, 2014 8:24pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Call up Ben Lederman.

I wonder if Ben knows his celebrity status among US Soccer superfans?

admsghs27
Post #24
Tuesday December 16, 2014 9:31pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Original post from 2tone

It's going to be a few years before Pulisic will be playing for Dortmunds reserves. Junior Flores barely gets time with Dortmunds reserves.

IS it a possibility Pulisic breaks into the USMNT before the WC in 2018? Possibly, but it's just as possible that he flames out at Dortmund. I don't understand this fascination to bring in 16 year olds to USMNT camps.

The kid has talent, but also has a long ways to go physically and mentally.


Why not the World powers bring in 16-18 years old constantly.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #25
Tuesday December 16, 2014 11:27pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,582
Original post from admsghs27

Why not the World powers bring in 16-18 years old constantly.


Really? What world power brings in a 16 year old player who hasn't played for their respective Club's first team yet?

Give some names?

There is a difference in bringing in a Neymar who played for Santos first team at 16 versus a 16 year old who is playing for Dortmunds U-16 team.

There is a difference in bringing in a 17 year old Messi who was playing for Barcelona's first team versus a 17 year old playing for Schalkes academy.

The USMNT has brought in young guys in the past, but I think Pulisic is a few years away from being in that conversation.

jabbajolly
Post #26
Tuesday December 16, 2014 11:57pm

Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts: 57
Original post from recycledhumans

+1, JK seems to care more about what you as a player are capable of producing on the pitch rather than your club situation. Given CP's recent performances, I wouldn't be surprised to see him called into the preGC camp.


Honestly, it's not clear to me what JK cares about these days... he's completely inconsistent.

dolcem
Post #27
Wednesday December 17, 2014 6:49am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from 2tone

So what are the "official" terms? I played soccer from 6 years old on and I have frequently used those terms throughout my soccer playing days. I have said RAM/LAM, LW/RW, RM/LM, RF/LF, CAM/CF, Striker/FWD. It's funny people seem to think there are some type of "official" terms for every position. Just like Centerback=centerhalf, or CDM=DM, or outside back=fullback, RW/LW=winger. A RAM or LAM is different than a winger/wide FWD.

There are distinctions between the certain type of players who play those roles. A winger traditionally is a player who stay's wide and gets chalk on their boots from center stripe to endline stripe, takes on the opposing fullback and whips in crosses, and they generally don't track back into their defensive third much because that was the duty of the fullback.(Brek Shea, Beasley, Ralston, John Barnes).

A wide FWD is like a winger but is a player who stay's higher up the pitch, doesn't defend much at all(Christiano Ronaldo, Thomas Mueller, Arjen Robben, Gareth Bale), and generally looks to score versus whipping in crosses.

RAM's/LAM's/RM's/LM's: Are players that are both adept at taking on players as well as combining with players coming inside( Ribery, Hazard, Iniesta, KAKA, Donovan, Dempsey, Nagbe). They generally defend a bit more, but are still expected to carry the attack and combine with the lone striker and CAM, who look to open up defenses with passes, crossing etc... as well as look to score.


There are no "official terms" and there is no official definition for any of those acronyms you just listed. The wide players in a 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 are referred to as "wingers" in the English-speaking soccer world. While in box scores these players might be referred to as RM, RAM, RW, there is no official definition for any of these acronyms. They aren't technical terms but rather used at the author's discretion. If one had to guess where on the pitch these referred to, it's obvious RM would be farther back, but you don't really hear commentators refer to a player as a "right attacking midfielder" as opposed to a "winger."

While every one of the players you listed is unique, every single one would be called a "winger." I mean Robben and Ribery play on opposite sides of the same formation! It's true that Ribery tracks back more but that has more to do with his fitness and commitment than his position. And even if those are the manager's instructions, that's not to say that they are playing different positions. Every player on every team has distinct roles. Even if a player on one side plays far higher up the pitch than one the other (Dani Alves rather than, say, Abidal or Alba back when Barca played a 4-3-3) it's not like the commentator or box scores will list him differently. They will mention that he has far much more attacking freedom and pushes higher up the pitch, but it's not like people would say they play different positions.

While it is true that sometimes the front three in a 4-3-3 are sometimes referred to as wide forwards and that there are some players that fit well in a 4-3-3 wouldn't fit in a 4-2-3-1 for example (although it is funny though because I specifically remember listing Herculez Gomez as one of them and the other posters, I'm pretty sure including 2tone, saying that the difference didn't matter) but still all these players will be generally referred to wingers, especially the ones listed above.

Three of those players, however, don't really fall into this category. Donovan played on the wing for most of his career but he isn't really a natural winger (he's a tweener, betwen a winger and a media-punta, which doesn't really translate into English and we would call a second striker, support striker). Kaka wasn't a winger, he played as an attacking mid in a X-mas tree formation (a #10 or CAM, if you will). And how did Iniesta get in this list? Traditionally for Barca he played as a CM in their 4-3-3. Xavi sat back and sprayed balls all over the pitch while Iniesta pushed the attack forward and forced plays in the final third. While it's true he sometimes plays in Barca's front three, he's definitely not a natural winger.
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chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #28
Wednesday December 17, 2014 7:35am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,540
With beer in hand as inspiration, I wade into the fray...

Winger = the outside player that is closest to the opposing goal. Outside forwards in a 4-3-3. Outside mids in a 4-4-2 (unless forwards are offset to one side) and 4-2-3-1.

We can all agree we need outside players that possess the big three traits...true international level speed, vision/high soccer IQ and technical passing /crossing ability. We usually get two out of three...maybe. We're not going to be able to bring it competitively against top teams until we get outside players with all three.

hamsamwich
Post #29
Wednesday December 17, 2014 2:33pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,409
It's all semantics. Jurgen likes the widest player to be the attacking fullback. He likes the "wingers" or whatever to be like a Julian green or a brek Shea who like to cut inside, helping us to have many players in the middle of the field. In that sense, Yedlin is our attacking RB, with a Bedoya type at RW.

Funny because Germany won the World Cup with a 4 CB backline- the old stopper/sweeper deal with the LB and RB pinched in. How often for example, did Howedes really get forward compared to Fabian or Yedlin for our team. With a lineup like Germany, the widest player would be the "wingers".

Lastly, I think how we deploy our players is about clogging up the field, because we yet don't have the skill to play wide open, no matter how much Jurgen may want to.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #30
Wednesday December 17, 2014 4:53pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,582
Original post from dolcem

There are no "official terms" and there is no official definition for any of those acronyms you just listed. The wide players in a 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 are referred to as "wingers" in the English-speaking soccer world. While in box scores these players might be referred to as RM, RAM, RW, there is no official definition for any of these acronyms. They aren't technical terms but rather used at the author's discretion. If one had to guess where on the pitch these referred to, it's obvious RM would be farther back, but you don't really hear commentators refer to a player as a "right attacking midfielder" as opposed to a "winger."

While every one of the players you listed is unique, every single one would be called a "winger." I mean Robben and Ribery play on opposite sides of the same formation! It's true that Ribery tracks back more but that has more to do with his fitness and commitment than his position. And even if those are the manager's instructions, that's not to say that they are playing different positions. Every player on every team has distinct roles. Even if a player on one side plays far higher up the pitch than one the other (Dani Alves rather than, say, Abidal or Alba back when Barca played a 4-3-3) it's not like the commentator or box scores will list him differently. They will mention that he has far much more attacking freedom and pushes higher up the pitch, but it's not like people would say they play different positions.

While it is true that sometimes the front three in a 4-3-3 are sometimes referred to as wide forwards and that there are some players that fit well in a 4-3-3 wouldn't fit in a 4-2-3-1 for example (although it is funny though because I specifically remember listing Herculez Gomez as one of them and the other posters, I'm pretty sure including 2tone, saying that the difference didn't matter) but still all these players will be generally referred to wingers, especially the ones listed above.

Three of those players, however, don't really fall into this category. Donovan played on the wing for most of his career but he isn't really a natural winger (he's a tweener, betwen a winger and a media-punta, which doesn't really translate into English and we would call a second striker, support striker). Kaka wasn't a winger, he played as an attacking mid in a X-mas tree formation (a #10 or CAM, if you will). And how did Iniesta get in this list? Traditionally for Barca he played as a CM in their 4-3-3. Xavi sat back and sprayed balls all over the pitch while Iniesta pushed the attack forward and forced plays in the final third. While it's true he sometimes plays in Barca's front three, he's definitely not a natural winger.


I just explained the differences of the positions names. Read carefully. Iniesta was a RM/RAM, KAKA was a RAM/CAM/LAM, Donovan was RM/LM/CAM/RAM/LAM. It depends on how the formation is first set up. In a empty bucket 4-4-2 you generally see acronyms LM and RM, etc...

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