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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #1
Monday December 1, 2014 7:14pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,574
Some media outlets would have you believe that the American player is on the decline in Europe. I say bullocks to that. Lets take a closer look:

Scandinavia 2014:

Mix Diskerud: The only player playing regularly
Josh Gatt: Still recovering from injury
Ethan Horvath: Molde's academy/back-up keeper
Ben Spencer: Was on loan to Indy 11, should be back with Molde in the spring.

Scandinavia 2010:
Bedoya
Feilhaber
Goodson
All three of these guys were playing week in and week out.

Scotland 2014:
zero

Scotland 2010:
Edu

England 2010 EPL/Championship:
Dempsey
Howard
Guzan
Spector
Hahnemann
Whitbread
Altidore
Holden

England 2014 EPL/Championship:
Altidore
Howard
Guzan
Cameron
Shea
Spector
Williams
Packwood
Holmes
Whitbread
Lichaj
Hyndman
Cropper: made the bench a few times
Holden: injured in early 2014

Eredivisie 2010:
Zero

Eredivisie 2014:
Aron Johannsson
Rubio Rubin

Bundesliga/Bundesliga 2 2010:
Bradley
Cherundolo
Kenny Cooper
Jermaine Jones

Bundesliga/Bundesliga 2 2014:
Green
Fabian
Chandler
Brooks
Boyd
Wooten
Wood
Gyau

Austria 2010:
Zero

Austria first half of 2014:
Boyd

Italy 2010:
Gooch(injured, never really played for AC Milan)

Italy 2014:
Zero

Spain 2010:
zero

Spain 2014:
Zero

France 2010:
Davies(injured, only played like 4 games)
Bocanegra

France 2014:
Bedoya

Belgium 2010:
Kljestan

Belgium 2014:
Kljestan

Greece 2010:
Eddie Johnson
Freddy Adu

Greece 2014:
Nicholas Gaitan

30 Americans in Europe in 2014. Out of that 30, 25 players have seen minutes in 2014.

22 Americans in Europe in 2010. Out of that 22, 21 players saw minutes in 2010.

No I am not going to add Donovan because he was loaned for two months and that's it. Donovan was never really a European based player.

Demise? Not so much.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #2
Monday December 1, 2014 8:51pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,292
Yeah demise is a strong word. Plus with so many young American players signing in Europe, we'll see more in the future I'm sure.

dunlopp9987
Post #3
Monday December 1, 2014 9:28pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,645
Agreed. I think right now we're in this weird phase with the USMNT where some of our top guys (Jones, Deuce, Bradley) came back to MLS, and so we have a lack of our top players playing in Europe. But I think in the next 5 years, the majority of our top players will be in Europe. As much as MLS might continue to be improving player salaries, the allure of playing in Europe will always be there. And will always draw guys over there.
COYB!!
tylercocinas
Post #4
Monday December 1, 2014 10:52pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
We weren't really in so much of a transitional stage after the 2010 WC so much as we are now, and I don't think there will be so much turnover after 2018 given the ages of the players who will likely be in contention to make that roster so the notion of decline is really more of the natural cycle that every nation goes through in different ways at the international level

Know Nothing
Post #5
Monday December 1, 2014 11:05pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,781
Makes you wonder what the outcome would be of a USMNT Domestic (with Mexian based players too) vs USMNT Europe

Europe (4-4-2):

Guzan
TC, Brooks, Ream, FJ
Gyau, Cameron, Mix, Bedoya
AJ, Rubin

Domestic (4-4-2)

Rimando
Yedlin, Jones, Besler, Garza
Nguyen, Bradley, Trapp, Zusi
Dempsey, Morris

Europe is a little soft in midfield so I reluctantly put Cameron there. I opted for a 4-4-2 to accommodate AJ and Rubin in the side as I don't think Jozy fits this set of personnel very well.

dolcem
Post #6
Monday December 1, 2014 11:50pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
We have two field players in the Premier League and one of them can't see the field. And having players in the Championship is nothing to brag about.

Half of these players are dual nationals.

Back in 2002 I thought that in ten years we would already have a legitimate superstar. We have exponentially more people playing the game than back then and a budding youth academy system. Yet we haven't produced another Donovan, Reyna, McBride, etc. I would say it's pretty disappointing.

It doesn't matter how many millions of people we have playing soccer or even if we have a youth academy system, if we aren't playing the game the right way, we won't produce world class field players.

If you look at the world's best soccer players, they all learned the sport the same way: playing constantly as soon as they walk and joining an organized (and well-coached) team after having played countless hours of pic-up. Most American kids learn the sport by kicking their first ball with an organized park and rec team at the age of 6, probably 11 vs. 11. That's how I learned to play, and after 8 years of park and rec soccer I still hadn't learned how to trap the ball.

Immigrants come from developed soccer cultures and they teach their kids using the former method, which is why so many of our best players have been first-generation immigrants. The problem is immigrants make up too small a percentage of the population and chicanos are actually pretty lukewarm about soccer.

We aren't going to improve until we change the culture from the ground up and start to play the sport the way it is played the rest of the world rather than how we learn it in PE.
GET A CLUB TEAM
navi8132
New York
Post #7
Tuesday December 2, 2014 1:14pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Dolcem are you hispanic?

TheTruth
Post #8
Tuesday December 2, 2014 5:00pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 954
Dolcem - You've made progress. You managed to have a long post about US youth development without mentioning Futsal.

Guys, we've been over this many times before. A big part of the reason for the (lack of a) trend is that MLS is getting better. Progress will be measured in decades, not years. Yes, it's still painful to watch even the best MLS teams after a day of EPL, but it's getting better. It's very possible that we don't win the Gold Cup or make it to the 2nd round of WC 2018. And it's not a disaster if that happens. Now, it would be an embarrassment if we didn't make it through to the 2nd round of Copa America since it's at home, but I expect that we will make it through.

And Dolcem, for fuck's sake, move outta Nebraska and watch some of the kids playing soccer around the country.

admsghs27
Post #9
Tuesday December 2, 2014 7:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
The NE V NY game was by far better and more entertaining than any EPL game over the weekend. And I saw some of the chelsea vs sunderland because of Jozy and it was pretty boring. But like the saying goes Rome wasn't build in one day. But MLS has come long ways if you sit down and watch an entire game from 2000 to now in 2014 there is a huge difference.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #10
Tuesday December 2, 2014 8:15pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,574
There is no reason to get into a long debate about the development of our youth. The US has made big strides in that department in the past decade. Is it perfect? no. Does the US still have a ways to go with certain area's of youth development? yes. But no and I mean no youth development program is perfect. Brasil, Germany, England, France, Italy, Argentina etc... still revamp their youth systems.

There has only been 8 countries that have won the WC, 8.

No country has risen as fast as the US has in World Soccer in the past 20+ years. It still is going to take a bit of time, have patience.

hamsamwich
Post #11
Wednesday December 3, 2014 12:10am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,323
Like Jurgen said, making the semifinals would be a very lofty yet attainable goal, if not Russia then in Qatar. Players are better now than before, but so are other countries. It's part of the fun of the future, very unpredictable. Hyndman, Rubin and a few others next year (hoping Pulisic on loan maybe) have been impressing at a younger age than ever before. I'm still waiting on Akale to be great. Back home the likes of the Pineda brothers, Collin Fernandez, Cam Lindley and others are also better than previous youth iterations here in chicago- and that story is repeated in Seattle, Dallas, la galaxy, ny red bull- hell every team has a redding or an EPB it seems. Be patient like 2tone said- but most of all, enjoy the ride.

MSantoine
Post #12
Wednesday December 3, 2014 4:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from dolcem

We have two field players in the Premier League and one of them can't see the field. And having players in the Championship is nothing to brag about.

Half of these players are dual nationals.

Back in 2002 I thought that in ten years we would already have a legitimate superstar. We have exponentially more people playing the game than back then and a budding youth academy system. Yet we haven't produced another Donovan, Reyna, McBride, etc. I would say it's pretty disappointing.

It doesn't matter how many millions of people we have playing soccer or even if we have a youth academy system, if we aren't playing the game the right way, we won't produce world class field players.

If you look at the world's best soccer players, they all learned the sport the same way: playing constantly as soon as they walk and joining an organized (and well-coached) team after having played countless hours of pic-up. Most American kids learn the sport by kicking their first ball with an organized park and rec team at the age of 6, probably 11 vs. 11. That's how I learned to play, and after 8 years of park and rec soccer I still hadn't learned how to trap the ball.

Immigrants come from developed soccer cultures and they teach their kids using the former method, which is why so many of our best players have been first-generation immigrants. The problem is immigrants make up too small a percentage of the population and chicanos are actually pretty lukewarm about soccer.

We aren't going to improve until we change the culture from the ground up and start to play the sport the way it is played the rest of the world rather than how we learn it in PE.


I think you could make the arguement that we are no better off now then in 2010 or earlier, but to say that we're on the demise is ridiculous.

Yes Championship isn't impressive but Id focus more on the young players receiving minutes in europe that we didnt have then. Guys like Green, Gyau, Rubin, Hyndman are wee above the young class we had in 2010 if not earlier (Im not going to pretend to remember if we had many U20 guys in europe in 2002)

The Media is spinning it since in 2010 our team leaders were Dempsey (EPL) Bradley (Europe, he moved around a lot), Boca (France) Howard (EPL) Gooch (Serie A). Now are leaders are Dempsey (MLS) Bradley (MLS) Jones (MLS). I dont think its so much a demise in europe as it is a growth in mls.

dolcem
Post #13
Thursday December 4, 2014 11:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from navi8132

Dolcem are you hispanic?


Nah, but I live in Latin America and have been to eight Latin American countries

Original post from TheTruth

Dolcem - You've made progress. You managed to have a long post about US youth development without mentioning Futsal.

Guys, we've been over this many times before. A big part of the reason for the (lack of a) trend is that MLS is getting better. Progress will be measured in decades, not years. Yes, it's still painful to watch even the best MLS teams after a day of EPL, but it's getting better. It's very possible that we don't win the Gold Cup or make it to the 2nd round of WC 2018. And it's not a disaster if that happens. Now, it would be an embarrassment if we didn't make it through to the 2nd round of Copa America since it's at home, but I expect that we will make it through.

And Dolcem, for fuck's sake, move outta Nebraska and watch some of the kids playing soccer around the country.


The MLS is getting better but why aren't we sending more players to the top leagues? We have more depth than ever before, due to increased numbers of people playing the game, but our top players aren't getting any better because there aren't enough kids playing the game the way it is played in other countries.

It may be true that I am from a rural area but I am in the most soccer crazy region of the country (the northwest), and you can describe a few places with some really progressive soccer going on but I think this is a rather small percentage of the general soccer population in this country, not to mention they are geographically speaking, few and far between (meaning some of these prodigies are stuck playing stone-age soccer with the rest of their peers). More importantly, you might think you've seen some kids that are really into soccer, but it is nothing compared to the kids of the soccer powerhouses. Soccer in Argentina, for example, is a religion and you see ten year olds here that are more skilled than any high school players I ever saw in my day. It's an obsession and it's no wonder they produce such talented footballers. In the US there just aren't enough peope that take it as seriously as these kids do, and that includes the vast majority that are just playing for fun.

Original post from 2tone

There is no reason to get into a long debate about the development of our youth. The US has made big strides in that department in the past decade. Is it perfect? no. Does the US still have a ways to go with certain area's of youth development? yes. But no and I mean no youth development program is perfect. Brasil, Germany, England, France, Italy, Argentina etc... still revamp their youth systems.

There has only been 8 countries that have won the WC, 8.

No country has risen as fast as the US has in World Soccer in the past 20+ years. It still is going to take a bit of time, have patience.


But the funny thing is that our top players don't seem to be getting any better. We have way more depth than ever before but we have hit a ceiling. And we won't break that until the culture changes from the ground up. It's not just about youth development; our youth systems are way better before but our best players aren't really getting better. We won't produce world class field players until the amount of solo practice/pick-up from the ages of 2-10 reaches the level of that in other countries. You can't be Messi if you learn to play at the age of six by joining an 11 v. 11 rec team coached by parents. You could turn out to be a great goalkeeper though, and, surprise, we have had amazing keepers throughout our history.

Original post from MSantoine

I think you could make the arguement that we are no better off now then in 2010 or earlier, but to say that we're on the demise is ridiculous.

Yes Championship isn't impressive but Id focus more on the young players receiving minutes in europe that we didnt have then. Guys like Green, Gyau, Rubin, Hyndman are wee above the young class we had in 2010 if not earlier (Im not going to pretend to remember if we had many U20 guys in europe in 2002)

The Media is spinning it since in 2010 our team leaders were Dempsey (EPL) Bradley (Europe, he moved around a lot), Boca (France) Howard (EPL) Gooch (Serie A). Now are leaders are Dempsey (MLS) Bradley (MLS) Jones (MLS). I dont think its so much a demise in europe as it is a growth in mls.


Green is as promising as anyone we've had since Altidore or even Donovan but he's a dual national. Gyau is 22 (not that young for a winger) and even if he can stay healthy I'm not sold on him.

Dempsey is at the end of his career as is Jones, who is a dual national. The MLS did land Bradley but that's because he jumped at the dollar signs, not something all players will do.

The MLS certainly is growing, not because of a few DP's but rather because the general quality is improving. We have more depth than ever before because soccer was infinitely more popular among this generation of kids than it was the previous one. Yet our best players aren't getting better. In any other cycle we had a core group of field players that were plying their trades in the top leagues, now, other than a few dual nationals, we have hardly anyone: Altidore (haha), Cameron, Bedoya, and Rubin. With Donovan done and Dempsey past his prime (and Bradley woefully out of form), this is the worst the USNT has looked since the 1990's. Considering the amount of progress soccer has made in this country sice then, I would say it is very disappointing.

We aren't seeing better elite players because of the lack of solo practice/pick-up play in the crucial years of development 2-10 (2-6 in particular). Until our CULTURE changes from the ground up we won't raise our ceiling, except for getting lucky with the odd dual national.
GET A CLUB TEAM
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #14
Friday December 5, 2014 2:17am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,574
Gyau is still young and still has things to learn. For pete sake he will only be 25 for the next WC. Right when most players are hitting their prime. Am I sold on Gyau? Not totally, but I am not sold on most young players right now. Green has a ways to go, as does any 18 to 23 year olds in the player pool.

But I will say this Gyau was much more dangerous than Green was in the earlier friendly games. I am excited to have Joe back. Hopefully Klopp gives him many more minutes because Dortmund just look toothless in attack right now. I think if given the minutes Joe will seize the moment and become a regular for Klopp. I thought he looked really good with his 20 minute spell early in the season.

The one youth player that I am really excited about right now is Rubin.

Call me crazy but I would love to see this for the march friendlies:

-------------AJ----------
Green---------Rubin-------Gyau
---------Mix------Bradley-----
Garza------Brooks----Jones----Yedlin or CHandler
--------------Guzan-----------

Chandler is in some of the best form I have ever seen him in at the moment. So is Brooks.

My one area of concern with Garza, which has been an area of concern since his U-20 days, is that he lacks a bit of pace. I think that's why he has turned into a more of a stay at home LB versus a marauding fullback.

And my area of concern with Green is that he doesn't defend very well.

I could ultimately see Jordan Morris at LW over Green in the coming years.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #15
Friday December 5, 2014 4:26am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,533
I think we just have a little lull right now. In a couple years we'll have a more players making their way in Europe.

Dolcem - Stay calm and follow Pulisic...

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