RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
navi8132
New York
Post #1
Monday November 3, 2014 8:59pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Curious to hear your thoughts on how justified the Gaza bombings/war was. My position is what you would imagine it to be.

chillguy1992
Post #2
Monday November 3, 2014 9:51pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,118
I think it was slightly justified from a national defense standpoint however it quickly got out of control and targeted way to much of the civilian population. I think that both sides are in the wrong. Israel has done nothing to help create a peace process. The palestine Israel issue derives from the very forceful removal of arabs from israeli lands in the first place to create Israel not unlike the very akward creation of our own country. Hamas has made things worse for the palestinan people by its continued launching of rockets. I am a proponent for peace and I can see the ideas and thinking of both sides. Israel and Palestine need to reach an agreement centered on three things.
1. Palestine must reign in Hamas however thats harder said then done if Hamas feels there is no peace process that will be achieved soon and war is the only thing that can save palestine.
2. Israel needs to act and stop the settling of its citzens on palestinan land. This is the largest issue at the moment and will stop any peace process in its tracks.
3. Israel and Palestine both need to recognize the sovergnity of both sides. Palestine can not launch rockets at a soverign state and not expect a response. Israel must recognize the fact that many palestinans commute to and from Israel and allow them to move quicker and without many restrictions.
Obviously its hard for both sides of the issue to reconcile these facts without descending into a frenzy of demonization of both sides, not unlike the political climate we are facing now before the midterm elecitons. I am for peace and really think it is achievable if both sides will just recognize that the other sides are human beings and not monsters or boogeymen.

navi8132
New York
Post #3
Monday November 3, 2014 10:02pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Let me ask you a question: What would you do, if you were Israel, if "Palestine" permanently refuses to recognize Israel for all time. This is a hypothetical, so don't say "well I think in time Palestine will recognize Israel".

I would annex all of the Palestinian territories and ride the wave of arab outrage until it dissipates. I think peace is impossible in this situation. There are examples in history of peace being impossible between two sides, this is not a status that has never occured.

navi8132
New York
Post #4
Monday November 3, 2014 10:25pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Meaning if peace is impossible, then one side has to completely win. This is more profound than a peace with Nazi Germany because it was clear that was a singular isolated infectious nationalistic state that was temporary. Palestine is different.

mmee
Culver City, CA
Post #5
Tuesday November 4, 2014 12:39am

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 2,147
It's such a sadly messy situation that it's hard to know what to hope for, because it seems like you're just hoping against hope.

I'm reminded of a pick-up game I played in it, where the other team was 2 Israelies and like 7-8 Egyptians, and they couldn't have been happier to play together. I wish it was as easy as all that.

navi8132
New York
Post #6
Tuesday November 4, 2014 1:35am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Reality is whatever it is. This is not the first horrible conflict between two peoples, the past 4000 years is full of greater horrors than the conflict between these two. We just live in a country where things are so peaceful that it's hard to really imagine (or accept) how bad things can be.

stone88
Post #7
Tuesday November 4, 2014 2:34am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,523
Tell me who the main aggressors in this long conflict have been?



navi8132
New York
Post #8
Tuesday November 4, 2014 3:11am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
Two scenarios: constant intermittent warfare OR Israel formally declares war and annexes all palestinian terroritory. I hope for the latter. Peace is impossible sadly.

chillguy1992
Post #9
Tuesday November 4, 2014 6:19am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,118
Original post from navi8132

Let me ask you a question: What would you do, if you were Israel, if "Palestine" permanently refuses to recognize Israel for all time. This is a hypothetical, so don't say "well I think in time Palestine will recognize Israel".

I would annex all of the Palestinian territories and ride the wave of arab outrage until it dissipates. I think peace is impossible in this situation. There are examples in history of peace being impossible between two sides, this is not a status that has never occured. Meaning if peace is impossible, then one side has to completely win. This is more profound than a peace with Nazi Germany because it was clear that was a singular isolated infectious nationalistic state that was temporary. Palestine is different.


Well I would realize that their are two main groups in Palestine. One does recognize the existence of Israel which is the government of palestine the other is hamas which does not. The US negotiates with the government of Palestine which is lead by Abbas. Societys ideals and beliefs can change even views about israel. The world is filled with countries who once despised each other being allies just give it time. It wasnt 2 long ago 50 years ago which I know sounds long but isnt in geopolitics that Israel and Jordan were at war now they are allies.

I dont think the Nazi Germany comparison is fitting considering that the holocaust did happen under nazi germanys watch. Considering peoples worries about ISIS and Hamas I would find it hard to think that people would give either one the benefit of the doubt. If millions of jews were slaughtered I doubt they would just call it a singular isolated infected nationalistic state that was temporary if palestine did that. That also proves my point that you can have two countries become allies or peaceful in time. Germany slaughtered millions of jews and today Israel and Germany are allies. Peace is a hard and difficult thing the world isnt a simple place but it can be achieved. For example US foreign policy during the cold war. For example the US fought against Vietnam and we are allies now. The US fought a war with panama and we are allies now. Foreign Policy fluctuates with time and peace can actually be achieved between nations that fight. I dont think annexing palestine and making it part of israel would be the solution. You take an already angry palestine people who were forcibly removed from palestine and incorporate them into an Israel that would really cause bloodshed and a lot of people would die. That and other countries would deffiently get involved thats a potential regional war reminiscent of 1967 with countries joining both sides I still think peace is possible unlikely due to both sides grievances. However it can be achieved. I welcome that you like to hear our opinions. Remember none of this is personal this is just policy debates differing of opinions happens. This is my last post on the subject as it is november 4 and I hope not to have to talk politcs for a while after todays election results. Republicans will probably win the senate but a runoff election is likely in georgia and Louisiana. So and this is a decent chance we could end up possibly dealing with the election not decided until december or january. Anyways as a north carolinan I am just glad I dont have to see another political commerical for another 2 years was making me senile.

hamsamwich
Post #10
Tuesday November 4, 2014 12:37pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,452
Zionism is a new idea, only been around for a century or so. Historically, Jews and Arabs have lived for millennia alongside one another. It's the modern conceptions of "state" and "race" that have created this.

Of course 1947-48 was awful, genocide mixed with colony building, sponsored by Western Europe and the USA. It is still that way today. The biggest investment (and one of the only ones that pays off for my broke state of Illinois) in my state are Israeli bonds.

The Palestinians themselves have been overtaken by thugs in their small, jail-like world. It's just like gangs in the poorest neighborhoods in the USA. Of course thugs (read: Hamas, Fatah) will control the small resources.

This issue is a double standard where if you don't support the colony, you are branded an anti Semite. It's been only 60 years, but the state of Israel is a given, like it or not. Palestine has no real political future, sadly.

For those in California- this would be like if you wee forced to move from La Jolla, Malibu and the Valley- and moved into the Mojave desert. With a real wall, not the USA Mexico border fence. Basically this is an updated version of the reservations Native Americans were sent to. The Palestinians went from fruit and olive groves out to rocks and sand. Terrible.

Stone88- that graphic illustration is a must to see for all uneducated on this issue.


Pellegrino Matarazzo and VfB Stuttgart got their Bundesliga campaign off the ground on Saturday with a win over Mainz.
RECENT POSTS
Marsch Wins Coaching Honor
American Trio Wins 3. Liga Title
Konrad Commits To Barcelona
Matarazzo, Stuttgart Eye Promotion