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recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #46
Thursday October 16, 2014 4:28pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,467
Original post from 2tone

If anyone that seriously thinks MLS won't continue to be a massive influence for the USMNT, must be smoking some good shizz.

We all know MLS isn't on par with the big Euro leagues, but let's stop lumping European leagues as a whole

I would argue that most MLS clubs would hold their own in the Eredivisie and the Championship and Bundesliga 2. Most MLS teams would probably be a top of the table of teams in the Norwegian top league or Danish top League.

It's fine to not like the MLS, but let's look at the league with objective eyes.

Yes MLS still has a ways to go.

Yes the salary cap needs to be raised substantially.

Yes single entity may be outgrowing itself.

Yes free agency and player acquisitions from inside MLS needs to be updated.

But I for one am quite happy that MLS is around. I enjoy watching an American Soccer league, and watching it's continued growth.


Great post, and while I may not share as much of your optimism with how the MLS teams would stack up in Europe I basically agree with everything you've said. With all the talk of the BPL wanting to institute some kind of cap, slow and steady will eventually be the best option rather than letting the free market dictate that the richest clubs are the most successful.

The cap is undoubtedly the biggest hurdle to the growth of MLS, but the other issues you pointed out are almost as important.

Rey Regicide
Post #47
Thursday October 16, 2014 4:49pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from 2tone

If anyone that seriously thinks MLS won't continue to be a massive influence for the USMNT, must be smoking some good shizz.

We all know MLS isn't on par with the big Euro leagues, but let's stop lumping European leagues as a whole

I would argue that most MLS clubs would hold their own in the Eredivisie and the Championship and Bundesliga 2. Most MLS teams would probably be a top of the table of teams in the Norwegian top league or Danish top League.

It's fine to not like the MLS, but let's look at the league with objective eyes.

Yes MLS still has a ways to go.

Yes the salary cap needs to be raised substantially.

Yes single entity may be outgrowing itself.

Yes free agency and player acquisitions from inside MLS needs to be updated.

But I for one am quite happy that MLS is around. I enjoy watching an American Soccer league, and watching it's continued growth.


Who's saying they don't like the MLS?

Rey Regicide
Post #48
Thursday October 16, 2014 5:01pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from recycledhumans

Great post, and while I may not share as much of your optimism with how the MLS teams would stack up in Europe I basically agree with everything you've said. With all the talk of the BPL wanting to institute some kind of cap, slow and steady will eventually be the best option rather than letting the free market dictate that the richest clubs are the most successful.

The cap is undoubtedly the biggest hurdle to the growth of MLS, but the other issues you pointed out are almost as important.


How can you say it's a great point and post and then admit that the level talent wise might not be equivalent, that's exactly what JK was saying.

He's not saying that MLS is worthless, he's saying that players are better and stronger playing in European leagues.

Bob Bradley criticized the league.
http://worldsoccertalk.com/2009/04/13/is-bob-...

Bruce Arena criticized the league.
http://www.coloradorapids.com/news/2010/06/qu...

Jk does it and does it in an honest way; it's a problem.

hamsamwich
Post #49
Thursday October 16, 2014 5:32pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,140
It's my right as a season ticket holder and consumer of MLS to have an opinion. Yes it's better than 10 or even 5 years ago. Heck this is the pinnacle if you aren't a fire or chivas supporter. But the gap is substantial. MLS should strive to be a mix of holland Mexico while looking far away to become a power league. Right now it's as good as it needs to be for a league and it provides interest and entertainment. I go to the games knowing what I am about to watch is not even Europa league standard, much less champions league. If it's not Europa league standard it's not good enough for our top tier players. That's all.

And 2tone and other Seattle fans- what will Jordan Morris do?? His decision is a microcosm of the debate.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #50
Thursday October 16, 2014 5:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,467
Original post from Rey Regicide

How can you say it's a great point and post and then admit that the level talent wise might not be equivalent, that's exactly what JK was saying.

He's not saying that MLS is worthless, he's saying that players are better and stronger playing in European leagues.

Bob Bradley criticized the league.
http://worldsoccertalk.com/2009/04/13/is-bob-...

Bruce Arena criticized the league.
http://www.coloradorapids.com/news/2010/06/qu...

Jk does it and does it in an honest way; it's a problem.


Huh? I agreed with everything he said, I just don't think MLS teams would fair as well as 2tone thinks they would in various European leagues. He's not far off, but still a bit too high...I put us around League 1 champs and Championship relegation bait. Obviously there are teams that can perform at a higher level due to their depth and the money they've spent, but that my honest assessment of where I see the "average" MLS squad.

admsghs27
Post #51
Thursday October 16, 2014 5:54pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Apperantly klinsmann is smoking some good shizz. He has been hating on MLS for some time now, and the only reason he has to call up MLS players is because he does not have that many options in Europe. If USA had several players playing in Europe he would not call any MLS players.

Rey Regicide
Post #52
Thursday October 16, 2014 6:08pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Again arrrrrrrggg ok ok let me try this mental exercise.

Remember when MB was MB90? (good times, i know right)

Remember when he never came out and he was like the only automatic inclusion in midfield, while we were trying different pairs of midfileders. Well part of tha was because he was in europe. Justifiably or not (in retrospect, probably should have given Beckerman and Cameron a shot when the latter was developing), that was the status quo. People would ask, why do yo ukeep including Bradley, well he's playing in Europe what do you have? Good point. Not much to negotiate.

Ok

Ok so now Bradley is back in the us, well canada, and he's on par, same playing field as the MLS. Literally and figuratively.

Ok

So now what's the reason for continually calling up Bradley? Because he's not better than Lee Nguyen. LN is up for MVP.

He's not better than Kitchen, Trapp, Beckerman in the holding role. What's the reason for this?

It's because he's Michael Bradley. But after a month long tournament where the whole world looks at you and you piss in your pants during crunch time, honestly, forget the midfield f ups, Bradley didn't miss those sitters for us while he was in Holland, and def didn't miss those against egypt slovakia etc when he was in germany.

And after maybe a couple more underwhelming international performances, you're goingt o have a pretty good reason as to why you're getting called up. Oh, you're not in the playoffs? Lee Nguyen is? You have to step up.

Whether or not this conversation happens behind closed doors, or in the boss's office idk. I'd like to draw parallels in my life but I don't work in an environment where there's actual media scrutiny.

And all of this, ALL OF IT, is lying on top of that which we know is true, the MLS is not on par as the european leagues.

now that, have at it.

dunlopp9987
Post #53
Thursday October 16, 2014 6:15pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,642
Original post from admsghs27

Apperantly klinsmann is smoking some good shizz. He has been hating on MLS for some time now, and the only reason he has to call up MLS players is because he does not have that many options in Europe. If USA had several players playing in Europe he would not call any MLS players.


Original post from 2tone

If anyone that seriously thinks MLS won't continue to be a massive influence for the USMNT, must be smoking some good shizz.


Can't even come up with an original line?

It's great that this is being argued about. It shows that there is passion and we care. Know what else it shows? That Jurgen cares. He could easily just call in all Euro-based players. Or he could easily call in all MLS players. But he doesn't. He says these things, like his comments regarding players pushing themselves to perform in better leagues, because he DOES care about US soccer. If he didn't care, he wouldn't have given two shits about Bradley and Dempsey taking the money to come back here. But he does care. A lot. He wants to see the sport grow here, and he wants to see this country (where he has spent a large portion of his life living now) become a global soccer powerhouse.
COYB!!
Rey Regicide
Post #54
Thursday October 16, 2014 6:20pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from dunlopp9987

Can't even come up with an original line?

It's great that this is being argued about. It shows that there is passion and we care. Know what else it shows? That Jurgen cares. He could easily just call in all Euro-based players. Or he could easily call in all MLS players. But he doesn't. He says these things, like his comments regarding players pushing themselves to perform in better leagues, because he DOES care about US soccer. If he didn't care, he wouldn't have given two shits about Bradley and Dempsey taking the money to come back here. But he does care. A lot. He wants to see the sport grow here, and he wants to see this country (where he has spent a large portion of his life living now) become a global soccer powerhouse.


If he hated the MLS he would NEVER call up MLSers like Bob BRadley did. Ok so Bradley didn't hate the MLS, but he stuck to his belief tha a guy in Europe is better than a guy in the MLS. AND THAT IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE. I will disagree wtih Bob there.

Klinsmann has called mlser's, what he is saying is that if you come to the MLS after being in an environment where you were champions league tested, where you competed agains thte best players in the world, soon to be rivals in a world cup, you better have your game ultra tight.

MB (76')?'s game isn't ultra tight at the moment.

admsghs27
Post #55
Thursday October 16, 2014 6:20pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Original post from dunlopp9987

Can't even come up with an original line?

It's great that this is being argued about. It shows that there is passion and we care. Know what else it shows? That Jurgen cares. He could easily just call in all Euro-based players. Or he could easily call in all MLS players. But he doesn't. He says these things, like his comments regarding players pushing themselves to perform in better leagues, because he DOES care about US soccer. If he didn't care, he wouldn't have given two shits about Bradley and Dempsey taking the money to come back here. But he does care. A lot. He wants to see the sport grow here, and he wants to see this country (where he has spent a large portion of his life living now) become a global soccer powerhouse.


In case you did not get it i was Agreeing with 2Tone.

SiteBomb621
Post #56
Thursday October 16, 2014 8:00pm

Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts: 176
If the "league you play in" truly counts for so much, why don't the English do better in all around Global Competitions and Euro competitions? Last i checked, the USMNT won their group at WC 2010, played to a 1 to nil game vs Germany this past WC and SHOULD have beat Belgium... Remember Jozy, Demps and a few others were not in form when picked for the US squad yet played well enough to get us to the knockout rounds. The league you play in is highly overrated.... Perhaps if the Brazilians stayed at home more often and played in their leagues they would have done a little better......

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #57
Thursday October 16, 2014 8:18pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 886
Original post from Rey Regicide

Bob Bradley criticized the league.
http://worldsoccertalk.com/2009/04/13/is-bob-...

Jk does it and does it in an honest way; it's a problem.


Didn't realize Bob was so pro Euro over MLS. Makes me love him even more. And that article, in 2009, mentioned some random MLS guy is just as good as Clint Dempsey? Perhaps that shows these natty team coaches know exactly what they're doing.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
admsghs27
Post #58
Thursday October 16, 2014 8:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
I'm sure Brazil can field an all Domestic Starting 11 and still be a top 10 team in the World. And continue being a Power House.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #59
Thursday October 16, 2014 8:34pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,356
Original post from SiteBomb621

If the "league you play in" truly counts for so much, why don't the English do better in all around Global Competitions and Euro competitions? Last i checked, the USMNT won their group at WC 2010, played to a 1 to nil game vs Germany this past WC and SHOULD have beat Belgium... Remember Jozy, Demps and a few others were not in form when picked for the US squad yet played well enough to get us to the knockout rounds. The league you play in is highly overrated.... Perhaps if the Brazilians stayed at home more often and played in their leagues they would have done a little better......


I have argued for a long time that National teams that win the WC that are comprised of half or more players form their domestic league are the teams that usually do well in International tournaments. If you look at the last 5 WC winners you will notice that their WC rosters are more than half or close to half Domestic players to foreign based players.

2014 Germany: 16 players were domestic players, 7 players were playing in other Euro leagues.

2010 Spain: 20 players were domestic based, 3 were playing their trade in England.

2006 Italy: All 23 players were based in Italy.

2002 Brasil: 12 Domestic based players, 11 foreign based players. I think it's telling that since this team there has been less and less domestic based Brasilians on WC squads, and Brasil has looked a former shell of itself.

1998 France: 10 Domestic players, 12 foreign based players. WC squads were 22 players at this WC.

Now it can be argued as to why England always fails at International tournaments since all of their players come from the EPL? A. They produce players that play well for the EPL but not at the international stage. Meaning at the international stage your more technical players will always shine. England likes to produce hustle and bustle type of players in order to accommodate the erratic nature of play in the EPL. B. England carries to much pressure and expectations from it's fans and the media into all international tournaments. Simply put: their players fold under that pressure. C. England thinks it's their god given right to win international tournaments since they created modern Soccer. Simply put: English players are arrogant when they go to WC's or Euros', and their arrogance is their undoing. Remember what the Media put up after the draw for the 2010 WC, EASY: England, Algeria, Slovenia, Yanks. English players buy into the English media arrogance.

MSantoine
Post #60
Thursday October 16, 2014 8:58pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from 2tone

I have argued for a long time that National teams that win the WC that are comprised of half or more players form their domestic league are the teams that usually do well in International tournaments. If you look at the last 5 WC winners you will notice that their WC rosters are more than half or close to half Domestic players to foreign based players.

2014 Germany: 16 players were domestic players, 7 players were playing in other Euro leagues.

2010 Spain: 20 players were domestic based, 3 were playing their trade in England.

2006 Italy: All 23 players were based in Italy.

2002 Brasil: 12 Domestic based players, 11 foreign based players. I think it's telling that since this team there has been less and less domestic based Brasilians on WC squads, and Brasil has looked a former shell of itself.

1998 France: 10 Domestic players, 12 foreign based players. WC squads were 22 players at this WC.

.


Again with this pointless stat. Argentina was almost completely foreign based and made the final. Same as 2010 Netherlands. Brazil won the confederations cup with more foreign guys then had almost strictly foreign guys and made the semis and may have won if not for neymar a injury.

Good teams have players play I'm good leagues. Germany spain and Italy will always be domestic based. There leagues pay enough to keep the stars.

Russia, turkey, Greece, Japan, South Korea, Mexico are always domestic dominated and how many QF runs have those teams made the last 3 workd cups?

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