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dfw_fan
DfW
Post #256
Saturday February 3, 2018 4:19pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 965
Original post from skangles

Arena was simply making sure that Miazga was well rested for his starting CB spot in the World Cup...


And Jona Gonzalez for #6...

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #257
Friday February 9, 2018 7:40pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 2,964
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/geoff-camer...

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #258
Friday February 9, 2018 7:49pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,474
I agree and disagree with his statements. In the end the players are responsible for the outcome on the field.

Should a young player challenge themselves? Yes. But it's not as simple as saying every talented player should go to Europe. Every player is different and what works for one doesn't always work for another. Kids from the US have been going to Europe on a regular basis. Sometimes it has actually hindered a players development not helped. In fact the best one to look at is Letget. He has gotten more playing time and has excelled with LA. He was rotting at West Ham.

Not every talented Brazilian goes to Europe at a young age. Sometimes a player just underStands they aren't ready for Europe. Or they prefer to play in Brazil. Etc.... with other countries.

I still think he misses the mark to a certain degree.

dolcem
Post #259
Friday February 9, 2018 10:09pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,785
Everyone needs to read that article. Cameron points out some really troubling problems within US soccer. Here is one of my favorite lines:


Our best young players need to be playing in the top European leagues. Period. It shouldn't be looked at as a negative thing. It should be a huge source of pride to send a 20-year-old American kid to play in the Bundesliga or the Premier League. Even better if they came up in MLS for a few years.

Why is it seen as a negative for America to "lose" a player who goes to play abroad? Brazilians don't think this way when Neymar goes to Barcelona. The Dutch don't think this way when their Ajax academy kids go to Chelsea or Bayern. Why don't we go the other way entirely? U.S. Soccer should take out ads with pictures of all the players, past and present, who have made a huge impact on the world stage.


A lot of people seem to completely have it wrong here. They think it's good for the MLS to have "stars," so that means hanging on to players that are ready for Europe, or even sometimes paying inflated salaries to NT players who were there to begin with (Bradley, Altidore). But this isn't football or baseball. In soccer, you are much more dependent on your teammates, so if you stay at the lower levels, you can never become a great player. Keeping our best players at home is bad for the national team and it's bad for American soccer. If we want to progress as a culture, we need to send our players to play at the highest levels and then come back to teach what they learned. This is what all the other countries do. The Dutch are proud to send their players to the top leagues, and this is why they have always had such a great national team besides being such a small country.

Original post from 2tone

I agree and disagree with his statements. In the end the players are responsible for the outcome on the field.

Should a young player challenge themselves? Yes. But it's not as simple as saying every talented player should go to Europe. Every player is different and what works for one doesn't always work for another. Kids from the US have been going to Europe on a regular basis. Sometimes it has actually hindered a players development not helped. In fact the best one to look at is Letget. He has gotten more playing time and has excelled with LA. He was rotting at West Ham.

Not every talented Brazilian goes to Europe at a young age. Sometimes a player just underStands they aren't ready for Europe. Or they prefer to play in Brazil. Etc.... with other countries.

I still think he misses the mark to a certain degree.


You're completely missing the point. Cameron never said that "every player should play in Europe right now." His point is that the goal is to eventually play in Europe. You want to be the best player that you can possible be, and that means trying to play in a top five league. MLS can be the stepping stone there, sure. That's how he made it to Europe. But the sooner you get to the top leagues, the better chance you have of becoming a quality player, and that goes for any country in the world. After a year or two of playing well in the MLS, you have to step up to the next level. Any young player has to keep rising levels every year or two until he makes it to the top (and that was the case for every great player in history). Here Cameron sums it up perfectly:


Kellyn Acosta is a perfect example. He's got the talent and the work ethic to make it abroad. In the next year or two, he needs to go. FC Dallas and MLS shouldn't be salty about it. They should throw him a party and say, "Represent Texas over there, buddy. Give 'em hell." And they should already be looking for the next Acosta to bring up through their ranks.


You seem to be more of an MLS fan than a USNT fan. That's fine. For whatever reason, you love that Toronto FC gets two really quality players in Bradley and Altidore at the expense of our national team. But if you want the MLS to be good in the long run, that means we have to progress as a soccer culture. We have to start playing well in World Cups if we want to get people to really get into soccer and start playing it like they do in other countries. And that means having most of our NT play in the top leagues. You've said over and over again that it's fine if our best play at home, that playing in the MLS is no worse than playing in Europe. But the fact that we couldn't even qualify for a World Cup with the pro-MLS mentality should be a wakeup call.

If we want to play like the best, we have to learn from the best, from the people that have played this sport on a completely different level than any American ever has in history. We have to send our players and coaches abroad and then have them come back and teach us. And we need to have foreign managers come here to teach our coaches and players. The USSF has the money for much better managers than Bruce Arena or Caleb Porter. It's a damn shame that some of our fans are so content with mediocrity. I'll leave with one last comment from Geoff.


We saw the return of an old-school regime, one that may have worked a decade ago, but not now. Not anymore. One that did not adapt to a changing soccer culture. One that couldn't lead a team - that despite what some may feel - had plenty of talent and depth. And this was a regime that certainly wasn't equipped to lead us to the next level and the next phase in U.S. Soccer. After Jürgen Klinsmann was fired, and Bruce Arena took over, we got too comfortable. We lost our ambition and sense of progress. But more than anything, we lost any sense of competitiveness.
GET A CLUB TEAM
kernn63
Post #260
Saturday February 10, 2018 2:44am

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 298
Great post Dolcem

Dave
Post #261
Saturday February 10, 2018 3:03am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 847
Dolcem - I particularly agree with you're comment "If we want to play like the best, we have to learn from the best, from the people that have played this sport on a completely different level than any American ever has in history. We have to send our players and coaches abroad and then have them come back and teach us. And we need to have foreign managers come here to teach our coaches and players. The USSF has the money for much better managers than Bruce Arena or Caleb Porter." I'd be fine with the likes of Porter, Vermes, or other MLS coaches being part of the USMNT coaching staff (assistant coaches), but IMO they shouldn't be considered for the Head Coach's position.

kernn63
Post #262
Saturday February 10, 2018 4:58am

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 298
Is Lletget really a rebuttal to the article? He may not have gotten many first team opportunities at WHU but who is to say that it didn't make him better? He was MLS ready for one of the better teams on day one. If that brings him joy, great, but, in some respects, it reinforces Cameron's point.... MLS is less of a challenge that Lletget can be a starter and rest on his considerable talent in LA.

You may say that WHU should have given Lletget a chance and that's fair. I think the English system has its own issues, but at the same time, maybe the Lletget lesson is pick a better club situation. If that's what he did, then great, but moving from west ham to a more competitive environment than MLS would probably have served him better in terms of achieving his own potential. I don't mean to be critical of a player making his own choice but since Lletget is the example, I think it's worth discussing.

kernn63
Post #263
Saturday February 10, 2018 5:13am

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 298
Hyndman is going through something very similar at Bournemouth. From a selfish, I want the US to be as good as it can be perspective, the point isn't, "nice try, Emerson...it just didn't work and come back to MLS", it's "don't necessarily pick a comfortable situation, but find a club that's going to give you a true opportunity"

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #264
Saturday February 10, 2018 6:18am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,474
Original post from dolcem

Everyone needs to read that article. Cameron points out some really troubling problems within US soccer. Here is one of my favorite lines:

A lot of people seem to completely have it wrong here. They think it's good for the MLS to have "stars," so that means hanging on to players that are ready for Europe, or even sometimes paying inflated salaries to NT players who were there to begin with (Bradley, Altidore). But this isn't football or baseball. In soccer, you are much more dependent on your teammates, so if you stay at the lower levels, you can never become a great player. Keeping our best players at home is bad for the national team and it's bad for American soccer. If we want to progress as a culture, we need to send our players to play at the highest levels and then come back to teach what they learned. This is what all the other countries do. The Dutch are proud to send their players to the top leagues, and this is why they have always had such a great national team besides being such a small country.

You're completely missing the point. Cameron never said that "every player should play in Europe right now." His point is that the goal is to eventually play in Europe. You want to be the best player that you can possible be, and that means trying to play in a top five league. MLS can be the stepping stone there, sure. That's how he made it to Europe. But the sooner you get to the top leagues, the better chance you have of becoming a quality player, and that goes for any country in the world. After a year or two of playing well in the MLS, you have to step up to the next level. Any young player has to keep rising levels every year or two until he makes it to the top (and that was the case for every great player in history). Here Cameron sums it up perfectly:

You seem to be more of an MLS fan than a USNT fan. That's fine. For whatever reason, you love that Toronto FC gets two really quality players in Bradley and Altidore at the expense of our national team. But if you want the MLS to be good in the long run, that means we have to progress as a soccer culture. We have to start playing well in World Cups if we want to get people to really get into soccer and start playing it like they do in other countries. And that means having most of our NT play in the top leagues. You've said over and over again that it's fine if our best play at home, that playing in the MLS is no worse than playing in Europe. But the fact that we couldn't even qualify for a World Cup with the pro-MLS mentality should be a wakeup call.

If we want to play like the best, we have to learn from the best, from the people that have played this sport on a completely different level than any American ever has in history. We have to send our players and coaches abroad and then have them come back and teach us. And we need to have foreign managers come here to teach our coaches and players. The USSF has the money for much better managers than Bruce Arena or Caleb Porter. It's a damn shame that some of our fans are so content with mediocrity. I'll leave with one last comment from Geoff.


Not missing the point at all. Nice try though.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #265
Saturday February 10, 2018 6:20am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,474
[quote]Original post from kernn63

Is Lletget really a rebuttal to the article? He may not have gotten many first team opportunities at WHU but who is to say that it didn't make him better? He was MLS ready for one of the better teams on day one. If that brings him joy, great, but, in some respects, it reinforces Cameron's point.... MLS is less of a challenge that Lletget can be a starter and rest on his considerable talent in LA.

You may say that WHU should have given Lletget a chance and that's fair. I think the English system has its own issues, but at the same time, maybe the Lletget lesson is pick a better club situation. If that's what he did, then great, but moving from west ham to a more competitive environment than MLS would probably have served him better in terms of achieving his own potential. I don't mean to be critical of a player making his own choice but since Lletget is the example, I think it's worth discussing.[/quote

Point being that Europe isn't for every player.

blaise213
Post #266
Saturday February 10, 2018 7:07am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,549
MLS has regressed for me because the stadiums are basic and don't provide a unique experience. That LAFC stadium is only 22,000 ??? Lame

There's too much cheap ownership that remains as well. The earthquakes stadium cost $60 million to build when teams like Atlanta and KC are spending that same amount on academies.

And why are we still at 3 DPs? Raise that shit to 5 or we will keep losing in CCL games to Mexico

Cameron went h.a.m on statement

kernn63
Post #267
Saturday February 10, 2018 3:19pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 298
Yep. It's not for everyone: https://youtu.be/uCtMJMyIGIw

kernn63
Post #268
Saturday February 10, 2018 7:11pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 298
I mean. What if you've just purchased a dog with your girlfriend. Can't just pick up and fly across the pond (but that's not going to make for world class soccer players and we know it)

dolcem
Post #269
Saturday February 10, 2018 9:16pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,785
Original post from 2tone

Point being that Europe isn't for every player.


The NBA isn't for every basketball player, either. Still doesn't change the fact that if you believe in athletics, you should try to be the best player you can possibly become, and if you're possibly good enough for the NBA, you'd be stupid not to try. Anyone who stays on a D league team just because he doesn't want to move away from his home town shouldn't be celebrated, and he shouldn't be anywhere near the Olympic team.

The MLS's goal right now should be to be like leagues like the Argentine or Dutch leagues, which develop quality players and send them abroad. This is good for the national team and it's good for the country's soccer culture. Eventually, the players come back and teach their peers what they learned. Do you want to see Americans play soccer well? That's how we're going to do it. Keeping our best players at home will only hold us back. No one in Argentina wants their top young players to stay at home. Their attitude is that when these players leave, it gives chances to the next kids in line. I know because I talked to them about it when I lived there.

How is it good for American soccer to hold our best players back by forcing them to stay home and play inferior soccer? If the MLS's strategy is not to develop talent, then what is it?
GET A CLUB TEAM
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #270
Sunday February 11, 2018 7:15pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,474
Original post from dolcem

The NBA isn't for every basketball player, either. Still doesn't change the fact that if you believe in athletics, you should try to be the best player you can possibly become, and if you're possibly good enough for the NBA, you'd be stupid not to try. Anyone who stays on a D league team just because he doesn't want to move away from his home town shouldn't be celebrated, and he shouldn't be anywhere near the Olympic team.

The MLS's goal right now should be to be like leagues like the Argentine or Dutch leagues, which develop quality players and send them abroad. This is good for the national team and it's good for the country's soccer culture. Eventually, the players come back and teach their peers what they learned. Do you want to see Americans play soccer well? That's how we're going to do it. Keeping our best players at home will only hold us back. No one in Argentina wants their top young players to stay at home. Their attitude is that when these players leave, it gives chances to the next kids in line. I know because I talked to them about it when I lived there.

How is it good for American soccer to hold our best players back by forcing them to stay home and play inferior soccer? If the MLS's strategy is not to develop talent, then what is it?


Never said that. Maybe you should really comprehend what I am saying. Going to Europe is not for every player. Every players situation is different. If you are a truly quality player it doesn't matter where you play. Maradona tore up three lleagues because he was a quality player. Is MLS the top league, obviously no. Is it better than what you think? Yes it is. Dempsey's attitude didn't change from MLS to the Premier league nor did it change from the Premier League when he made the move back to MLS. There a dozen or more cases of US players not be fitting from going to Europe. There is probably many cases where a player didn't benefit from staying in MLS as well. You miss the mark when you try to discredit my argument by saying I am an MLS fan boy. Attacking the man makes your arguments weak.

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