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cudevil
Post #31
Thursday March 6, 2014 7:07pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,168
Beas and Jones give us the best chance of winning, yes.

You also neglect the cultural aspect. The US doesn't have the luxury of throwing away a cycle. The more casual fan base won't stand for it. Would it cause irreparable harm? No more than the '98 WC did, but it would be a major, self-inflicted hiccup.

In addition, a Euro country can "throw away" a cycle because of the ultra competitive nature of WC qualifying there. Odds are that Belgium wouldn't have qualified regardless, so why not go young? But notice-they didn't do it at the WC like you are suggesting. The US should never fail to qualify for a WC out of CONCACAF. Ever. Will it happen at some point? Sure. But it would take a calamitous effort to do so. Throwing in the U-23 for the hopes of future WC success is one way you would increase the risk of not qualifying.

Chrisou101
Post #32
Thursday March 6, 2014 7:12pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 626
News flash, Belgium didn't even qualify for the 2010 world cup. After 2010 that's when their young talent started emerging and start playing in top leagues. We got plenty of young talent coming through the ranks but to play them over our older players just because they are YOUNG is just not right. France failed because of team disunity not because of age, they still have plenty of old players and yet they're still a good team. Serbia has a young team but they can't even qualify. What are we, Canada? So we lost to Ukraine and now we must dump our older guys and make way for younger players? Wait uniil the world cup is over then we'll see plenty of young players for the next cycle.

soccerboy-1983
vicenza, italy
Post #33
Thursday March 6, 2014 7:24pm

Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts: 306
we need green thats all there is to it. We have no creativity at all in the midfield. If we have to promise him a spot so be it. I think he could easily be the first guy off the bench in brazil.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #34
Thursday March 6, 2014 8:46pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,606
Green has talent, but no one knows how he will play in a senior national team environment.

People said we needed Gatt. Then he plays a decent first cap and everyone crapped on him because he made a few mistakes.

Point being that fans expect to much from a talented young player.

I still think Gatt can be a very good player at the international level.

I have no idea if Green will be until he A. he becomes a true first team player for a Bundesliga team be it Munich or another Bundesliga team and B. commits to a country.

People will point to his form for Bayern Munich II, but remember Boyd's goal scoring form was tremendous for Borussia Dortmund II and everyone talked him up. Boyd has yet to really grab a foot hold in the USMNT.

Green still has a lot of time on his side, and I will be a little shocked if he makes that decision to play for the USMNT before the 2014 WC.

To put all hopes on a kid for 2014 that hasn't played first team soccer regularly and hasn't made a decision about his international future, is a bit pre-mature.

There is quite a bit of talented attacking youngsters coming up for the next cycle e.g. Arriola, Holmes, Zardes, Rubin, Lynden Gooch, Flores, Rowe, Gatt, Gyau, Gil, Salgado, Rodriguez, Haji Wright, Chris Pulisic, Kyle and Kris Scott, Romain Gall, Sonora not to mention Fagundez and Nagbe who are both in the process of getting US citizenship. If Green gets added then he will boost that attacking crop. It's not unthinkable that the USMNT may be considered a dark horse in the 2018 WC. I mean if you look at the attacking players corps for 2018 it is has the potential to be very talented.

People need to realize that the 2014 WC cycle was a transition one. A lot of players hitting their 30's and not enough young established talent was coming up for this cycle.

I will be happy if the USMNT plays well at the WC, and gives each and every team a real fight. If they don't make it out of the group stage then so be it. As long as they play to their best ability, then that is all you can ask for.

MSantoine
Post #35
Thursday March 6, 2014 10:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from cudevil

Beas and Jones give us the best chance of winning, yes.

You also neglect the cultural aspect. The US doesn't have the luxury of throwing away a cycle. The more casual fan base won't stand for it. Would it cause irreparable harm? No more than the '98 WC did, but it would be a major, self-inflicted hiccup.

In addition, a Euro country can "throw away" a cycle because of the ultra competitive nature of WC qualifying there. Odds are that Belgium wouldn't have qualified regardless, so why not go young? But notice-they didn't do it at the WC like you are suggesting. The US should never fail to qualify for a WC out of CONCACAF. Ever. Will it happen at some point? Sure. But it would take a calamitous effort to do so. Throwing in the U-23 for the hopes of future WC success is one way you would increase the risk of not qualifying.


Do you think we if we played yedlin or farrel or chandler (he wasnt hurt at the time) over Evans the last 4 qualifiers we wouldnt have qualified? What if Gil was there instead of Beckerman. This isnt about one game against Ukraine this is about a broken philosophy amongst USSF officials and how that is partly holding us back. Look at 2002, the gold standard for US Soccer. We had a 20 year old Beasley and a 20 year old Landon Donovan. A 24 year old John O'Brein with just 13 caps. A 25 year old Mastroeni with 8 caps. A 23 year old Dolo on the bench. Dolo is the perfect example. He'll go down as arguable one of the greatest US soccer players of all time. Would he have gotten there without the 2002 experience? Its hard to say but I dont think you can say he'd have achieved what he did without it. Dont we want Chandler to get to that level? Or Brooks? Or yedlin? Anyone? Again no one is saying play an olympic qualifier its the retreads that have shown time and again that they cant compete against non-CONCACAF opponents thats the problem. What do we have to lose? If Arriola plays instead of EJ do we not beat Jamaica or Antigua and Barbuda? US is the big dog in a small pond. We have the luxury where we can throw young players into the fire because we should still be able to beat up on the Carribean and most central american teams with 9 or 10 "best" starters and 1-2 young guys. Instead we dont even bring them to camp and we keep trucking out MOF, Castillo, et all.

cudevil
Post #36
Thursday March 6, 2014 10:30pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,168
Chandler is an established player at the club level and, to a certain extent, on the international level as well. I've never argued that Evans gives us the best chance to win, so he's a pretty poor example as far as this particular conversation goes.

If you slot Gil/Yedlin into @ CR, home to Mexico, home to Jamaica and @ Panama-yes, I think qualifying gets much more dicey. Moreover, you are undercutting your own argument. If the older guys with lower ceilings don't give us the best chance to win, then why wouldn't Gil/Yedlin be playing the entirety of qualifying?

As for 2002, Pablo only played because Armas blew a knee. O'Brien was a regular for Ajax when they were far more relevant in Europe. If any of the guys you mentioned were regulars at top clubs, the lack of caps would be less relevant.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #37
Thursday March 6, 2014 10:39pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,606
No use arguing about it. You aren't going to see most of those guys for an extended period for the USMNT until after this World Cup.

The September friendly's will be the first opportunity for a number of new faces.

Jzaval01
Post #38
Thursday March 6, 2014 10:55pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,315
Dude we brought John Anthony Brooks a 20 year old who has good Bundesliga experience. What happened? Brooks was liable made terrible passes and was just plain bad. Young player are mistake prone. Not all players are good enough at 20 like a LD. Now Gil Yedlin Brooks Klute arent not ready not for this world cup. THe kids just finish playing a season in 1st division football and now you wanna throw them to the wolves in the group of death?
Sometimes we have to admit that what we have might not be the best but we had to do with. No reason to rush players they need to develop properly so that we can have players like LD at his prime. 2018 will be a new generation thats for sure.

I understand though that we are big fish in small pond but you do that at the beginning of a world cup cycle not near the end. Even BRAZIL brought Neymar and other in the beginning of the world cup cycle not in 2013
Now Brazil has a powerful young squad that includes Oscar Jo Neymar Hulk Silva Luiz and stll veterans like Alves.

blaise213
Post #39
Thursday March 6, 2014 10:58pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,255
I would gamble on Julian Green and Shawn Parker. I would offer them both World Cup Spots.

I would also NOT start Dempsey or Altidore.

I'm really looking forward to our next cycle.

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #40
Thursday March 6, 2014 11:17pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 894
Idk, I kind of agree mostly with MSantoine. Jurgen is bringing all these vets to Brazil like we have a chance to win the thing. The young guys are the future. Even if they are on the bench watching all 3 games.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
cudevil
Post #41
Friday March 7, 2014 12:37am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,168
Original post from snipes87

Idk, I kind of agree mostly with MSantoine. Jurgen is bringing all these vets to Brazil like we have a chance to win the thing. The young guys are the future. Even if they are on the bench watching all 3 games.


So does that mean we just say "Eff it" and bring the U23 team every WC until we have a chance to win the WC? Cause that could be a long time.

navi8132
New York
Post #42
Friday March 7, 2014 1:08am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,122
I think, as said before, that this World Cup will go very sadly for us.

venicebeachbull
Post #43
Friday March 7, 2014 2:57am

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 135
Brian Straus was right!

MSantoine
Post #44
Friday March 7, 2014 12:52pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from cudevil

As for 2002, Pablo only played because Armas blew a knee. O'Brien was a regular for Ajax when they were far more relevant in Europe. If any of the guys you mentioned were regulars at top clubs, the lack of caps would be less relevant.


This is what I dont get. So if your 19-21 you have to be a potential stud to get early looks? So if we had a 21 year old starter for Newcastle he'd get starts but a 21 year old starter for Galaxy wouldnt? This is what I dont get. We dont have a 23 man roster of regulars at top euro clubs so we shouldnt require our young guys to be that either. When you have a chance look at the recent squads of teams like Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Slovakia, the teams that are at our level with respect to global football. They constantly play 19-21 year old domestic players because there senior teams is 80% domestic based, just like us. They all integrate young players into the senior team and then those young players get to perform on the big stage and get transfers to big clubs at young ages. Look at Adu, and yes I know he didnt turn into our savior but look at his career path. 14-15 year old starter in domestic league. Starts getting regula international cap by 18. Performs well in international tournements. Gets transfer to big Euro club. If we had 5-10 players follow this path every cycle we'd finally be at the level where most of our guys played for big teams (even if MLS is one of the big boys at that time). But we make the MLS guys wait until they are 23-24 and on the verge of getting transferred to Europe before we give them caps. Look at Cameron, Zusi, Besler, & OG. They all were at the end of there MLS contract before they started getting caps. Imagine where'd they be now if they started to get integrated. Maybe Besler gets a better offer and is playing in EPL, and further develops his game by now. Maybe Zusi would have gotten an offer from Arsenal (unlikely) or a lower level EPL team.

At some point hopefully US is at the level where you need to be playing for a top 4 EPL/Bundes/La Liga/MLS (hopefully) team to get a sniff of US duty but we need to stop acting like we are already there. Our best make up the mid table of Mexico and MLS. If we have other young players who also make up the mid table of Mexico and MLS they need to start getting looks. As we develop then we raise the bar. If you go back and look at Spain Im sure 12 years ago they had less Real & Barca players as they werent att hat level yet. They had to dip down to teams like Sporting Gijon and Tenerife and Logrones. They evolved and there player selection show it (95% Athletico, Real, Barca, top 4 EPL teams only)

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #45
Friday March 7, 2014 3:21pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 894
Original post from cudevil

So does that mean we just say "Eff it" and bring the U23 team every WC until we have a chance to win the WC? Cause that could be a long time.


No. That's extreme. But players who don't belong in Brazil (EJ, Evans, Wondo, etc) should be losing playing time to people like Yedlin, Gil, etc. 23 guys are going to Brazil. Only about 15 are going to play. The other spots should be younger/potential future difference makers. Sprinkling in 1 or 2 young guys with a veteran team isn't going to hurt our chances any less than running Eddie Johnson out there vs Germany..
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
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