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cleancutimage
Post #76
Tuesday May 22, 2018 4:06am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,309
Why all the hate on Zardes? He is finally reaching his potential. His quality has never been in question. His first touch was.

Some of you guys act like we are Brazil or France. We have yet to create a national team full of world class players. So if a player is in form and can bring something to the national team then give him the opportunity. Remember we are not in the World Cup, so now is the time to experiment. Also, Zardes has done well for the national time in spurts. Remember he scored against The Netherlands in a friendly in a great game that ended up in us coming from behind to win and he scored in Copa America.

I think a move to Europe should be in his near future. He probably should have done it sooner but better late than never. He is still only 26. Maybe in the next year or so he makes the jump. Play 4-5 years there, maybe for a team in Belgium, France, or The Netherlands.

But once again, he is talented for USMNT standards.

bjelks
Post #77
Tuesday May 22, 2018 5:25am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,366
First touch is quality, shooting from range is quality, 1v1 dribbling is quality, volleying in traffic is quality and we have younger players in Europe right now that can do all those things better than him. So why are we discussing a 26 yr old domestic player on an abroad site with no reports for a prospective move?
goalsense
cleancutimage
Post #78
Tuesday May 22, 2018 6:03am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,309
Original post from bjelks

First touch is quality, shooting from range is quality, 1v1 dribbling is quality, volleying in traffic is quality and we have younger players in Europe right now that can do all those things better than him. So why are we discussing a 26 yr old domestic player on an abroad site with no reports for a prospective move?


I hear you but that is not the quality of the American player yet. Donovan is arguably our best player ever and he could not dribble. He has limited shooting range. He did have a pretty good first touch but he wasn't exactly the prototype you are describing.

And other than Pulisic and McKinnie, who in Europe that is an attacker is showing more quality than him right now in a quality league? Do not say Amon. He is the epitome of the word potential but he doesn't do it on a regular basis and is oft injured.

db707
Post #79
Tuesday May 22, 2018 2:00pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,018
bjelks:
"We know that Weah and Sargent simply have more quality than Zardes no matter the lack of club goals and against tough competition it will show." We don't know that yet. They're essentially unproven against senior competition (Weah just got his first start in a meaningless league game). Their call-ups are only acceptable because of where we are in the cycle and the need to build to Olympic qualifying.

"For Boyd and Rubin, scoring international goals is all about opportunity." 14 caps and 6 caps. Yet you knock someone like Alan Gordon when he had 2 caps, and had a game-winning assist in one of them.

"For example, Julian Green was playing 4th division reserves when scored that beautiful volley against Belgium in the WC. His experience didn't matter because his quality scored the goal." That "quality" currently has him at Greuther Furth scoring 3 goals in 24 games, a team who almost got relegated to 3.Bundesliga. Plenty of players I am sure you wouldn't define as quality have scored nice goals over the years. I am more interested in effective output, not aesthetic value.

bjelks
Post #80
Tuesday May 22, 2018 3:44pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,366
Original post from cleancutimage

I hear you but that is not the quality of the American player yet. Donovan is arguably our best player ever and he could not dribble. He has limited shooting range. He did have a pretty good first touch but he wasn't exactly the prototype you are describing.

And other than Pulisic and McKinnie, who in Europe that is an attacker is showing more quality than him right now in a quality league? Do not say Amon. He is the epitome of the word potential but he doesn't do it on a regular basis and is oft injured.


I would argue John O'Brien was our most quality player. Donovan was our most decorated. Jermaine Jones and Fab Johnson were also very high level in their primes. I think Clint Demps was our best goal scorer.
And Donovan did hit a nice long range shot and some 1v1 ability.

Novakovich was a top scorer in Dutch 2nd division and will have his chance at Reading next yr.
Weah is in the first team of the #8 team in the world.
Siebatchu was a top scorer in the French 2nd and led his team to promotion,
Rubin is still a young and highly touted player.
T. Boyd has been a regular in Bundesliga 2, has all the physical ability of Zardes and is much more technical.
All these guys except for Boyd are younger than Zardes. All are more technical and all are in more competitive environments.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #81
Tuesday May 22, 2018 4:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,366
Original post from db707

bjelks:
"We know that Weah and Sargent simply have more quality than Zardes no matter the lack of club goals and against tough competition it will show." We don't know that yet. They're essentially unproven against senior competition (Weah just got his first start in a meaningless league game). Their call-ups are only acceptable because of where we are in the cycle and the need to build to Olympic qualifying.

"For Boyd and Rubin, scoring international goals is all about opportunity." 14 caps and 6 caps. Yet you knock someone like Alan Gordon when he had 2 caps, and had a game-winning assist in one of them.

"For example, Julian Green was playing 4th division reserves when scored that beautiful volley against Belgium in the WC. His experience didn't matter because his quality scored the goal." That "quality" currently has him at Greuther Furth scoring 3 goals in 24 games, a team who almost got relegated to 3.Bundesliga. Plenty of players I am sure you wouldn't define as quality have scored nice goals over the years. I am more interested in effective output, not aesthetic value.


The experience that Weah and Sargeant are getting in the first team appearances with PSG and Werder Bremen are way more valuable than yrs of starting and scoring in MLS which is much less competitive and technical.

Again, my comment about Gordon was about his lack of ability. Garbage stats against international minnows and MLS competition doesn't speak to ability and it doesn't translate at the highest level. America has always had a problem with justifying player ratings with stats and not technique, iq, athleticism which is what translates.

Julian Green was in Gruether Furth because Stuttgart thought he needed regular minutes in a competitive, pressure filled environment to toughen up. He was rated as the club's best player and the reason they didn't get relegated. Good intl programs are built on toughness, belief, and ambition. Players that have plateaued in MLS and haven't pushed themselves outside of MLS don't have that. A player with limited quality and that has been coddled in MLS like Zardes would struggle in Bundesliga 2.
Actually, scoring nice quality goals is a byproduct of being a quality player, so I disagree.
goalsense
db707
Post #82
Tuesday May 22, 2018 5:24pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,018
bjelks, your entire argument is so subjective and way slanted against MLS, but the point about Weah and Sargent is that you have no way of knowing if they are actually going to be quality players yet. Plenty of players look great at U-17 level, get in youth systems at big clubs and amount to nothing. See Souleymane Coulibaly, star of the 2011 U-17 World Cup, and where he is today. See guys for the U.S. like John Thorrington or Frank Simek who played youth/reserve level at big clubs and never amounted to much.

My point about Gordon is that you're using a guy who had two measly sub appearances for the U.S. to say we rate players who aren't quality. He didn't feature enough for the U.S. to be in your argument. If you want to argue Wondo that's a different matter.

Green has plateaued in Germany and couldn't cut it with Bayern, Hamburg or Stuttgart. Why the rush to call him back in now? He's shown flashes of ability but he's never been consistent. Let him work harder to make it out of 2.Bundesliga if he wants to show toughness and ambition that you say we want. Right now he's still closer to being a bust than a top quality player. He's also too old for the Olympic team and can't help there.

And I guess you'd have to admit guys like Altidore and Bradley, who have scored plenty of nice goals in their careers, are quality

bjelks
Post #83
Tuesday May 22, 2018 6:28pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,366
Thorrington and Simek were never first team regulars Champs League quality sides.
Quality is more technical ability than games played. Theres a lot of variables that go into selection.
Zardes doesnt have the technical ability to control difficult balls, thread difficult passes, volley difficult balls accurately, hit precise powerful shots from distance, and beat defenders off dribble.
The eye test shows us these kids have quality.

Whether Gordon or Wondo, neither are better than anyone on my adult rec team.

You play Green now because he's one of our most talented attacking players, is playing in a tough league, playing consistently, improving, and fighting to prove himself in a tough environment, and is only 22. I think it's ridiculous to say someone who as a young player has struggled to be a regular in Bundesliga at places like Bayern and Stuttgart as a bust and praise someone who's never made a 1st team on European soil.

I will admit that Jozy and Bradley were productive players for US 4 yrs ago but they've declined since moving to MLS, their automatic selection has held the program back, and they're washed at this pt.
goalsense
db707
Post #84
Tuesday May 22, 2018 6:33pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,018
"Thorrington and Simek were never first team regulars Champs League quality sides." Neither are Weah or Sargent yet. Weah is close but needs to get more playing time next year. That is my point.

You also vastly overrate 2.Bundesliga. I said Green was closer to being a bust than to panning out. He's not a bust yet but he needs to start trending back up.

Lilshmike
Post #85
Wednesday May 23, 2018 4:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,303
Original post from bjelks

The experience that Weah and Sargeant are getting in the first team appearances with PSG and Werder Bremen are way more valuable than yrs of starting and scoring in MLS which is much less competitive and technical.

Again, my comment about Gordon was about his lack of ability. Garbage stats against international minnows and MLS competition doesn't speak to ability and it doesn't translate at the highest level. America has always had a problem with justifying player ratings with stats and not technique, iq, athleticism which is what translates.

Julian Green was in Gruether Furth because Stuttgart thought he needed regular minutes in a competitive, pressure filled environment to toughen up. He was rated as the club's best player and the reason they didn't get relegated. Good intl programs are built on toughness, belief, and ambition. Players that have plateaued in MLS and haven't pushed themselves outside of MLS don't have that. A player with limited quality and that has been coddled in MLS like Zardes would struggle in Bundesliga 2.
Actually, scoring nice quality goals is a byproduct of being a quality player, so I disagree.

The experience Weah and Sargent are getting is not from first team minutes, its from training in the first team and being around those players. They are getting a taste of what it takes to be a world class, seeing how good those guys are, how they train, etc. Experience in training, however, is not the same as the experience gained from getting first team minutes. Those are two completely different things. Yes, Weah has played a few minutes and got a start, but hes still a FAR way away in terms of development. He has potential, but thats all he has right now.

And just to clarify, Sargent has yet to get first team minutes with Bremen.

Alan Gordon: I agree with you somewhat. However, as I have stated before on the boards, you have to put things into context. Alan Gordon, for what he brings (being a big hold up man, providing a threat in the air, especially towards the end of a game), has quality. Should he have been a starter or consistently called in? No. But he served a purpose and had "qualities" that others lacked. And depending on the competition/available players, he would have been a good choice at times to call in. I'd compare him to a less athletic Andy Carroll. I'm splitting hairs tho on this one.

Lilshmike
Post #86
Wednesday May 23, 2018 5:34pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,303
@bjelks

I agree with you about Zardes.

Zardes is overrated IMO. Hes fast, strong, athletic, tall... but thats about it. He lacks a good first touch, he can't dribble very well, his passing/vision is poor, he is not exactly good at crossing, and he can't use his left.

With respect to the USMNT:
His lack of skill in dribbling, crossing, and passing limits his ability to be an effective wide player. Especially on the left. He has no left foot, so he could only really be an option at LM if he was good at taking guys on the dribble, cutting in, and ripping shots. Which he isn't really, and we already have better guys who can do that so... yeah.

He could possibly be an option up top, but he would only be effective if he received consistent, good service into the box (which we currently lack). He wouldn't be a hold up guy, not a utility forward, not a dribbler... strictly up top to either beat guys 1v1 with speed and/or clean-up in the box. Even then, Zardes has a habit of squandering easy chances.

If he can get better as a forward, and just overall in general... then yeah, he could find a place in our pool. But in reality, we have better players in the positions he can play.

Lilshmike
Post #87
Wednesday May 23, 2018 6:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,303
@bjelks

Also, again, try to put things into context. The statement - "scoring nice quality goals is a byproduct of being a quality player" - essentially translates to: good goals/lots of goals = good player. That may be an accurate generalization, but not always the case.

Ignoring quality of the league, or the competition they face:
If a quality forward plays on a team that provides poor service to them, or creates little opportunities in and around the area, then they probably won't be scoring many goals. In this case, they may be a quality player but they won't have the stats. Think of Giroud at Arsenal. Hes got quality, but they weren't giving him the chances he needed.

You may have a sub-par forward on a team with quality players supporting them. If they get chances constantly, they're going to score goals. Although they are scoring goals, its has more to do with others on the team who are quality and provide ample opportunities to score. Prime example of this is Wondo in MLS. Had tons of chances and scored lots of goals because he had good, consistent service into the box where he would clean up.

Additionally, you could have a situation where the player just doesn't fit well in the team due to style of play. In this scenario, they are quality, but may not have goals. Example is Forlan at Manchester United.

bjelks
Post #88
Thursday May 24, 2018 3:30am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,366
@lilshmike I totally agree with everything you said. This is why I say don't criticize J Green when he doesn't score a lot of goals, because the goals he score and creates are difficult and take a high level of skill.
A player like T Boyd hasn't scored a lot of goals, but is more capable of making difficult plays and has dealt with a much tougher club situation than Zardes.
goalsense
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #89
Monday January 14, 2019 7:46pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,452
Zardes garnering interest from a handful of Premier League and Championship league teams: Fulham, Huddersfield, Leeds United, Crystal Palace, Middlesborough, Norwich. Should be interesting to se if anything materializes.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #90
Monday January 14, 2019 9:34pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,160
Thats pretty crazy even for Zardes. Id imagine nothing will come to fruition but even rumors are good for some players.

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