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snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #316
Thursday July 9, 2015 5:07pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 862
Original post from MSantoine

Dos Santos played almost 30 games for a UCL semi finalist as am 18 year old. We have 18 year olds playing in 2.bundes, championship league, reserve squads that we think will be world class.

If we ever have a non-dual national american get even close to those minutes at that age the hype train will be ridiculous. Look how some people still revered Adu before his Bahia, Serbia, Finland flop (I know you remember that 2013ish topic that was insane)


He has a point. Every good country has u20 strikers already getting first team minutes and playing UCL. We're excited for our top u20 striker who hasn't broken into Reading yet.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #317
Thursday July 9, 2015 5:12pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from snipes87

He has a point. Every good country has u20 strikers already getting first team minutes and playing UCL. We're excited for our top u20 striker who hasn't broken into Reading yet.


We have a U20 striker getting first team minutes. No Utrect isn't in the UCL, but Rubin is getting a lot of first team minutes with them in what is arguably the 6th best league (Germany, England, Spain, France, Italy are the best 5...then you have a group of a few like Eredivisie, Turkey, Portugal, and maybe Russia/Ukraine) in the next tier.
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EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #318
Thursday July 9, 2015 6:02pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 2,974
Gio is a good player. Can't we leave it that??

MSantoine
Post #319
Thursday July 9, 2015 7:47pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from USAGunner

We have a U20 striker getting first team minutes. No Utrect isn't in the UCL, but Rubin is getting a lot of first team minutes with them in what is arguably the 6th best league (Germany, England, Spain, France, Italy are the best 5...then you have a group of a few like Eredivisie, Turkey, Portugal, and maybe Russia/Ukraine) in the next tier.


Exactly. We have a 19 year old playing in Eredivise and think he'll be a future star. Thats common place for pretty much every decent European team there is. Except they pretty much have 18,19,20 year olds playing in EPL, La Liga, & Bundesliga. The best we can do is Eredivise

admsghs27
Post #320
Thursday July 9, 2015 8:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Original post from EKneezy

Gio is a good player. Can't we leave it that??


Yes but in No way is he worth 9m a year... Maybe 3-4M a year that's it.

MSantoine
Post #321
Thursday July 9, 2015 8:56pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Jermaine Defoe made over 6 million last year. Robbie Keene makes 4.5 million. Cahill was over 3.5 million. Hes better than those guys.

dolcem
Post #322
Thursday July 9, 2015 9:02pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Original post from MSantoine

Jermaine Defoe made over 6 million last year. Robbie Keene makes 4.5 million. Cahill was over 3.5 million. Hes better than those guys.


He's also younger and much more marketable. He's a human highlight reel and could be the key to tapping into the massive chicano market. If they sign him for nine million it could go down as one of the best signings in the history of the league.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #323
Thursday July 9, 2015 9:58pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from MSantoine

Exactly. We have a 19 year old playing in Eredivise and think he'll be a future star. Thats common place for pretty much every decent European team there is. Except they pretty much have 18,19,20 year olds playing in EPL, La Liga, & Bundesliga. The best we can do is Eredivise


To be fair.
There were only 6 guys that are 20 and under right now that played in those 3 leagues last year (as a Forward).
Belgium (1)
England (2)
Spain (1)
Norway (1)
Germany (1)

Only 2 of them had more goals than Rubin and only 2 of them had more appearances (only enough only 1 had more appearances and goals than Rubin).

He of course would be the most famous of them and it's Divock Origi (starter for Belgium in World Cup).

Nigeria also had one that is not in the count above (as you said Euro teams).

Reaching out to the Ligue 1 and Serie A only there were only 7 more. Mostly from Fance (5), One from Spain and one from Switzerland.
Of those only 2 had more appearances than Rubin and only 1 had more goals. There was also one from Argentina that had more appearances and goals.

So I'd say there aren't too many at this age right now that are more accomplished than Rubin...
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dolcem
Post #324
Thursday July 9, 2015 11:25pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Original post from USAGunner

We have a U20 striker getting first team minutes. No Utrect isn't in the UCL, but Rubin is getting a lot of first team minutes with them in what is arguably the 6th best league (Germany, England, Spain, France, Italy are the best 5...then you have a group of a few like Eredivisie, Turkey, Portugal, and maybe Russia/Ukraine) in the next tier.


Off-topic but even if they don't have any teams as good as, say, Ajax, the week-in, week-out competition in Argentina and Brazil is better than the Eredevisie. Holland (and Portugal) is such a small country its league doesn't have the depth that you see in somewhere like Argentina or Brazil, which have much larger populations.

Having said that, of course it's a very good league and they are geniuses when it comes to development, arguably the best in the world. I'm absolutely thrilled about Rubin and I wish more Americans would try to use it at the main entry into Europe (I'm thinking of people like Shea, Yedlin, Agudelo, etc.).
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #325
Friday July 10, 2015 3:00pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
After looking at the rosters and ages of pretty much every team in the big 5 and knowing the Eredivisie, I would like our young players to go to Euro leagues in this Order:
1-Eredivise
2-France
3-Germany
4-England
5-Spain
6-Italy

France plays a lot of young guys, Eredivisie does too and develops talent very well. Germany is great at developing talent and plays it too. England is a mixed back, some will play and some teams will develop well. Some England teams would be higher than most French and Eredivise teams, but as a whole I prefer those 2. Spain I'm just not impressed with, the best younger players get snatched up by the top teams and sent to reserve teams (usually third division), only the third division in Spain is dreadful. And really only 2 teams in Spain are great at developing talent. Italy is for old guys...
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dolcem
Post #326
Friday July 10, 2015 5:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Original post from USAGunner

After looking at the rosters and ages of pretty much every team in the big 5 and knowing the Eredivisie, I would like our young players to go to Euro leagues in this Order:
1-Eredivise
2-France
3-Germany
4-England
5-Spain
6-Italy

France plays a lot of young guys, Eredivisie does too and develops talent very well. Germany is great at developing talent and plays it too. England is a mixed back, some will play and some teams will develop well. Some England teams would be higher than most French and Eredivise teams, but as a whole I prefer those 2. Spain I'm just not impressed with, the best younger players get snatched up by the top teams and sent to reserve teams (usually third division), only the third division in Spain is dreadful. [B]And really only 2 teams in Spain are great at developing talent.[/b] Italy is for old guys...


HJKDSFLKHDF*&((*&(*#@(*. All of Spain is tremendous at developing talent, arguably the best in the world. Sevilla (look at the profits they make on transfers) and Valencia (David Villa, David Silva, Mata, etc.) are absolute factories of talent, people just forget this because those players always get sold. Atletico Madrid is, too. And look at Athletic Bilbao. They're only allowed to use Basque, and there are only a few hundred thousand of them in Spain (not to mention they have to compete with Real Sociedad) and this is a team that does well in Europe. They completely played ManU off the pitch at Old Trafford a couple years ago.

The Spanish coaches and the Spanish style of play, at this point, are the best in the world, and the fact that these teams are poor really incentivizes them to focus on youth development. Remember when Michu took the Premier League by storm? Premier League teams, which are horrible at developing young players, raid any young Spanish talent they can find, even if it's relegation fodder.

The more players we have playing in Spain, the better. The only thing is that we've only had a handful of players in history skilled enough to play there.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #327
Friday July 10, 2015 6:17pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from dolcem

HJKDSFLKHDF*&((*&(*#@(*. All of Spain is tremendous at developing talent, arguably the best in the world. Sevilla (look at the profits they make on transfers) and Valencia (David Villa, David Silva, Mata, etc.) are absolute factories of talent, people just forget this because those players always get sold. Atletico Madrid is, too. And look at Athletic Bilbao. They're only allowed to use Basque, and there are only a few hundred thousand of them in Spain (not to mention they have to compete with Real Sociedad) and this is a team that does well in Europe. They completely played ManU off the pitch at Old Trafford a couple years ago.

The Spanish coaches and the Spanish style of play, at this point, are the best in the world, and the fact that these teams are poor really incentivizes them to focus on youth development. Remember when Michu took the Premier League by storm? Premier League teams, which are horrible at developing young players, raid any young Spanish talent they can find, even if it's relegation fodder.

The more players we have playing in Spain, the better. The only thing is that we've only had a handful of players in history skilled enough to play there.


If you are talking about U-16's then sure. I'm talking about guys who are older like U-20's and having them get first team minutes, etc. Looking through the rosters last year and how many played, especially in attack there just were very few U-20 types that actually played more than 10 games in La Liga last year.
I'm not talking about the beginning of development (school boy's and such), but the next stage. No argument from me that Spain (along with Brazil, Argentina) do a fabulous job of developing school boys.
Maybe it's because so many of their school boy's once they get to U-17 and U-20 are sold, but there just aren't many playing at that stage in Spain.
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dolcem
Post #328
Friday July 10, 2015 7:18pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,786
Original post from USAGunner

If you are talking about U-16's then sure. I'm talking about guys who are older like U-20's and having them get first team minutes, etc. Looking through the rosters last year and how many played, especially in attack there just were very few U-20 types that actually played more than 10 games in La Liga last year.
I'm not talking about the beginning of development (school boy's and such), but the next stage. No argument from me that Spain (along with Brazil, Argentina) do a fabulous job of developing school boys.
Maybe it's because so many of their school boy's once they get to U-17 and U-20 are sold, but there just aren't many playing at that stage in Spain.


But it's not like all of the coaches up to the U-16 level are good and all of the sudden at the U-20 level they're not. The issue here is sample size. This year was maybe an anomaly. Or maybe Spanish players tend to develop a bit later. Either way, if we look at the past decade or two, they're simply the best at developing talent at all levels.

Having said that, these things happen in cycles. Spain has enjoyed a golden age over the past ten to fifteen years, probably the best any country has ever had in history. But it's only natural that that should start to end. The law of averages or something. Anyway, we're already seeing Spanish players and coaches being imported everywhere (especially the Premiership) and a lot of teams are trying to play the Spanish way. Even Germany in the last World Cup looked like a Spanish team...it was entirely different from how they used to play. The rest of the world has learned from them and is catching up. Also, the increased competitiveness of the game and improvements in nutrition science is only making the game faster-paced and more based on athleticism, further reducing the advantage the Spaniards have from their superior technique. Spanish teams are having to modify the way they play to keep up with these changes. I think Atletico Madrid might be the model for future Spanish teams.

But that doesn't change the fact that they're experts at youth development and I'd be thrilled to have more Americans playing there. We need a few Americans that can play like Spaniards. The only problem is that the advisers of these kids are typical EPL worshipers. Trying to get into the EPL was a horrible decision for Agudelo and Shea, for example.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #329
Friday July 10, 2015 7:47pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Dolcem
I'm also mainly talking about young guys getting first team minutes in Europe.
This is for players 20 and under:
In the Eredivisie there was an average of 4 players on each club that played more than 10 games.
France there was an average of 2.5 players on each club that played more than 10 games
Bundesliga there was an average of 2 players on each club that played more than 10 games.
La Liga and EPL was 1.5
Italy was 1.

A good portion of development is getting first team minutes. I acknowledge that there is a good possibility that Spain develops them and then other leagues poach them from 16-22 before Real Madrid/Barcelona buy them back again (if they get to that level).

So I guess ideally the perfect set-up would be for one of our school boys to be brought up from 8-17 in a La Liga sides academy. Then be bought by an Eredivisie team and go and develop further as they get first team minutes. Then Once they have reached their potential (or close to it), go to one of the big leagues around 22-23 years old.
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USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #330
Friday July 10, 2015 7:47pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
In other words in reference to U-20 players for the USA, The best league for them to go and learn and actually PLAY is Eredivisie.
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