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oldkeeper
NY, NY
Post #16
Thursday October 17, 2013 5:47pm

Joined Jun 2013
Total Posts: 165
Original post from rainORshine

zusi is not an RM (you mention this over and over). donovan is no longer a great LM (or RM).

there are no (zero) optimal solutions. protesting to a formation simply because it puts players out of their "best" position does not make any sense when JK is already playing several players out of their optimal positions


Agreed. If we've seen anything with JK it's that he doesn't really care where someone is playing for their club team as long as they are playing and in good form. Given AJ's effectiveness Tuesday (and Dempsey's injury), we're most likely going to see some experimentation with AJ at a couple of spots in the next few friendlies.. His passing and touch are really sharp so playing as a withdrawn forward, winger, or attacking mid are not out of the question.

Lykou11601
Post #17
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:00pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
The debate seems to be a lineup with our best players on the field vs. a lineup with players in their best positions. We don't really have the depth to go at it with the latter. Our best attackers all play that dam cf st position. Altidore, Johannsson, Donovan, and Dempsey. We could sit two of them, but replace them with who? We could play them out of position, but where? In order to get them all on the pitch it would look like we'd have to go back to coach Bob's 4-2-2-2.

--Jozy--Johannsson--

LD----------Dempsey

--Bradley--?Jones?--

There are obvious flaws but with FJ and Chandler/Dolo back at Left and Right back we have good options to connect with other players. I put LD by Jozy because he's more a creator and Jozy in the finisher. Johannsson is both but creates more than Demps. All can interchange a bit

MSantoine
Post #18
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:17pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,231
I think one thing thats hard for people to grasp is the idea of not having your top XI players in a starting lineup. US has never really had the depth to be able to sit a top XI player, specifically a top 5 player. Well people need to start getting used to the idea. When your team gets to the level of being a serious contender you dont play your top XI players you play your best team. Look at Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Germany. There are some high class players who dont start for them. Why? Because they arent better than Ozil, or Robben, or Balotelli. Its just the way it is when you become having 25-40 players that are all international quality. Its a good problem to have.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #19
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:23pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,243
Original post from MSantoine

I think one thing thats hard for people to grasp is the idea of not having your top XI players in a starting lineup. US has never really had the depth to be able to sit a top XI player, specifically a top 5 player. Well people need to start getting used to the idea. When your team gets to the level of being a serious contender you dont play your top XI players you play your best team. Look at Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Germany. There are some high class players who dont start for them. Why? Because they arent better than Ozil, or Robben, or Balotelli. Its just the way it is when you become having 25-40 players that are all international quality. Its a good problem to have.


I agree completely. Contrary to what some believe we do have the player talent depth to sit one of our best players. I would not be surprised to see one or more of Deuce, Altidore, or Donovan not starting the first WC game.

Lykou11601
Post #20
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:25pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
It is a good problem to have. You're comparing apples to oranges though. We aren't those teams yet. We can give them a good fight, I'm sure of that. But, as 2tone has said we lack quality wingers. So what should we do? Leave AJ and Clint on the bench, and start Shea and Bedoya? We can't compare ourselves to those teams because we are not there yet.

rainORshine
Post #21
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:25pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,787
Original post from Lykou11601

The debate seems to be a lineup with our best players on the field vs. a lineup with players in their best positions. We don't really have the depth to go at it with the latter. Our best attackers all play that dam cf st position. Altidore, Johannsson, Donovan, and Dempsey. We could sit two of them, but replace them with who? We could play them out of position, but where? In order to get them all on the pitch it would look like we'd have to go back to coach Bob's 4-2-2-2.

-Jozy-Johannsson-

LD-----Dempsey

-Bradley-?Jones?-

There are obvious flaws but with FJ and Chandler/Dolo back at Left and Right back we have good options to connect with other players. I put LD by Jozy because he's more a creator and Jozy in the finisher. Johannsson is both but creates more than Demps. All can interchange a bit


not really - whether its a base 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 there are not great options for the wide positions. either way, at least 1 or 2 players will be playing at least slightly "out of position".

the debate, rather, is do we possibly become a stronger side by:
- adding another CM (kljestan)
- moving JJ to a 6 (where i think he could be more effective in a more limited role)
- allowing OBs to get forward a little more (as JJ will 'cover them' offensively) and
- allowing LD a little more freedom to attack in a front 3

the biggest drawback of this set-up is that is moves other 'wide' attacker - either johannsson or dempsey - out of a central position, which they both prefer. could be worth it.

people argue that we have seen 4-3-3, but we have not seen jones at a 6 and we have not seen how kljestan looks in a 3-man middle (partnered with bradley), nor have we seen either AJ or much of LD (who was out through some of that 4-3-3 experimentation) in this set-up

yes, we saw some 4-3-3 in 2012, but not with these players. i would argue the players make a difference

at the very least i would think it could be worth a look

Lykou11601
Post #22
Thursday October 17, 2013 6:33pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
I would be more than willing to add a cm. I've always liked the idea. Kljestan wouldn't be my first choice as the 3rd cm though. I'd like JK to give him a try in that 3 man midfield but I won't be broken up if he doesn't. While Kljestan has exceeded my expectations as of late, I still don't rate him high enough to be a wc starter. I'd love for him to prove me wrong though

rainORshine
Post #23
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:23pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,787
i suppose this is how i see it:

US biggest personnel strength: - attackers who do best close to goal
- donovan
- altidore
- johannsson
- dempsey
- EJ
- boyd

US biggest weaknesses:
- wide midfielders
- jones - losing his ability to dominate in CM
- unsettled back line

seems like a recipe for a 3-man middle and getting your best attackers on in a front 3. think LD wide in the 4-2-3-1 really limits his potential to impact a game

Lykou11601
Post #24
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:42pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
Do you guys think Donovan would be capable of playing as a cm? in a three man midfield

Lykou11601
Post #25
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:43pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
And has Johannsson played LW or RW at all?

rainORshine
Post #26
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:44pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,787
Original post from Lykou11601

I would be more than willing to add a cm. I've always liked the idea. Kljestan wouldn't be my first choice as the 3rd cm though. I'd like JK to give him a try in that 3 man midfield but I won't be broken up if he doesn't. While Kljestan has exceeded my expectations as of late, I still don't rate him high enough to be a wc starter. I'd love for him to prove me wrong though


who do you like? i just dont think zusi or diskerud are strong enough 2 way players for 90 minutes - see them more as attacking options off the bench.

everyone else is basically a DM - and would just clog things up (beckerman, etc.)

rainORshine
Post #27
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:46pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,787
Original post from Lykou11601

Do you guys think Donovan would be capable of playing as a cm? in a three man midfield


if LD is playing centrally he is basically playing the dempsey spot in what i think is best decribed as 4-4-1-1.

not a CM

rainORshine
Post #28
Thursday October 17, 2013 7:48pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,787
Original post from Lykou11601

And has Johannsson played LW or RW at all?


he always plays centrally for AZ (just like donovan always plays centrally for LA (this year))

Lykou11601
Post #29
Thursday October 17, 2013 11:08pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
I know. I only meant if they have the capability. And thats the million dollar question isn't it? I mean, yes, we can try kljestan, we can try torres, we can try mix. But i dont see any of them being better than okay. Adu?! just kidding haha. I love me some stu holden, and I refuse to count him out until he isn't on the roster to Brazil.

dunlopp9987
Post #30
Friday October 18, 2013 12:05am

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1,318
Original post from Lykou11601

Do you guys think Donovan would be capable of playing as a cm? in a three man midfield


I think that right now, that's not a smart idea. Because he's still got some life in those legs. But over the next few years when he starts to slow down, I think he could thrive as a CAM or CM, almost taking the Giggs route.
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