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EKneezy
Post #226
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:21pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,899
http://www.lagalaxy.com/blog/beat/2013/11/12/...

MSantoine
Post #227
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from dolcem

None of those guys are USMNT ready at this point and they will only play a handful of professional games before the next World Cup...none of them will make the Brazil '14 squad. There is no need to boost their egos just for the hell of it. You have a point about Agudelo (but like I said before, maybe they want him to go to Stoke) but not the others. I'd definitely take Orozco over O'Neill right now. They'll get their chance come Camp Cupcake, which is when we're supposed to look at guys like O'Neill. That's why we made Camp Cupcake to begin with.

We have Camp Cupcake for a reason. That's the time to bring in these young MLS guys, and who knows, one of them might do well enough to break their way into the final 23. But these two friendlies were designed to be for the A team, so it would only be counterproductive to call up anyone undeserving just to "develop" them and watch their egos launch into the stratosphere because they think they're now on the A team. They can wait one international date to get their call-up.



Why are you assuming JK will change at this point? This past Camp Cupcake was just as, if not more critical than the upcoming one. It was the final camp before the hex started as well as before a huge busy summer with gold cup too. Do you know how many U23 guys he brought in? 3. Agudelo, Gatt, & Morales (Mixx was sent home). How can you be so sure hes going to change now? Would you be surprised if most of the same players, Beltran, Morrow, Davis, Beckerman, Bruin were there again? Were you upset when this past camp cupcake he didnt bring in youngsters? If that was the time to do it, and he didnt then what makes you assume he'll do so this time? Also whats different from these friendlys compared to january friendlys? The answer should be nothing.

MSantoine
Post #228
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:25pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from 2tone

OK, well that excludes Rowe and Farrell who you have been clamoring for. Both Rowe and Farrell will be 24 in 2016.

Who that will be playing in Olympic qualifiers in the spring of 2016 should be brought in? Which players deserve it?

The only players that will be available for selection for Olympic qualifying that are truly deserving of a USMNT call-up for this cycle are: Yedlin, Gil, and Arriola. O'Neill for me has a lot of work to do still.


Sorry. I meant as if the olympic qualifying were in that year. IE would they qualify for 2013 olympics if they existed? If there were summer olympics in 2014 then any player who could play in qualifying is considered young for me. By 2016 your correct those players wont be youngsters anymore. But for 2014 World Cup they are the young guys who could bring us over the top. Sorry to confuse. Thats how I meant it.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #229
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:32pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,122
Original post from MSantoine

Sorry. I meant as if the olympic qualifying were in that year. IE would they qualify for 2013 olympics if they existed? If there were summer olympics in 2014 then any player who could play in qualifying is considered young for me. By 2016 your correct those players wont be youngsters anymore. But for 2014 World Cup they are the young guys who could bring us over the top. Sorry to confuse. Thats how I meant it.


Ok well on this current roster you have.

Hamid
Johannsson
Shea
Diskerud
Boyd
Brooks

They would all qualify to play in a 2013 Olympics. So youth is still served on this roster.

MSantoine
Post #230
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:32pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from dolcem

You're always talking about how much we need to bring in the youth but who are these young players you want to see get called up? The difference between the above listed nations and the US is that they have U23 players deserving of getting call-ups. You can't just compare the US to another nation in terms of the amount of young players it calls up because they have a completely different set of players. Well-run national teams don't call up players that don't deserve it. And we don't have any U23 players that should be on the roster. I'd take Agudelo over Wondo but that's it (and maybe they decided it'd be best for him to settle in at Stoke). The only other two that remotely deserve a call-up would be Arriola and Yedlin because our wide players are not quite good enough (there's also Gil but no way he would climb over the other CM's on the depth chart). And even then I don't mind if we're slow to bring them up because we don't want to inflate their egos. The US is also unlike the nations you listed above because we are so new to the sport and so desperate for stars. Anytime we have a young player who has a good game we hype him up like crazy until his ego goes through the roof and he doesn't improve at all over the next few years (Adu, Shea, Agudelo, etc.). The only thing that matters right now is WC 2014 and anyone who is unlikely to be there shouldn't get call-ups to these friendlies.


You need to compare apples to apples. To be a 17-21 year old and make the teams I mentioned you either a a star on a mid table team or you are on the bench of a top team. Spain's roster consists of primariy 3-4 teams rosters. So if your 17-18-19 not on one of those teams you probably wont get called in, if you are then you probably would. England is mostly made up of guys who play for Man U, City, Chelsea, Spurs, and a few other teams, so youngsters need to be at that level.

Our team consists of primarily MLS or MX guys (14 guys who dressed for the WC clincher vs mexico). MLS isnt top heavy like Spain, England, most of Europe so the strengths of the teams arent as black and white but most of the guys I mentioned all played in the playoffs.

MSantoine
Post #231
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from 2tone

Ok well on this current roster you have.

Hamid
Johannsson
Shea
Diskerud
Boyd
Brooks

They would all qualify to play in a 2013 Olympics. So youth is still served on this roster.


Again I dont consider 23 young anymore. If you added 23 year olds those other teams would have about 14 players each. We are still way behind what every other country does.

rainORshine
Post #232
Tuesday November 12, 2013 9:49pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,781
lets put it this way:

if JK had called in any 2 of about a half-dozen 'younger' guys (ill say 23 and under) who have been playing really well at club and left shea and wondo (or even some combo of shea, wondo, EJ, evans, orozco) home i dont think anyone could have any complaints.

instead, he has left himself vulnerable to some criticism about being a little too fond of guys he has previously 'invested' in

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #233
Tuesday November 12, 2013 10:08pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,122
Original post from MSantoine

Again I dont consider 23 young anymore. If you added 23 year olds those other teams would have about 14 players each. We are still way behind what every other country does.


Wait so you say anyone that is U-23 is youth then you say 23 is not youth? U-23 means 23 and younger.

Lets look at the best teams i.e. Spain, Germany, Holland, Italy, Argentina, France and Brasil and compare ages:

Spanish players that are in the next two friendlies that are 23 and younger:

Martinez(22)
Moreno(21)
Baartra(22)
Koke(21)
4 Spanish players that are 23 and younger.

German players 23 and younger on current roster:

Kroos(23)
Schurrle(23)
Draxler(20)
Gotze(21)
4 players 23 or younger on the German National team for these upcoming friendlies.

Holland players 23 or younger on current roster. Holland has always served youth so there will probably be quite few:

Martins Indi(21)
DeVrij(21)
Blind(23)
Veltman(21)
Strootman(23)
Fer(23)
Propper(22)
narsingh(23)
Depay(19)

Italian Players 23 or younger:

Florenzi(22)
Balotelli(23)
Insigne(22)
3 players 23 or younger on current roster.

Argentine players 23 or younger:

Rojo(23)
Lamela(21)
2 players 23 or younger on current roster

Brasilian players 23 or younger:

Marquinhos(19)
Oscar(22)
Bernard(21)
Neymar(21)
4 players 23 or younger on current roster.

France

Sakho(23)
Varane(20)
Pogba(20)
Grenier(22)
4 Players 23 or younger for current squad heading to WC qualification game.

USMNT players 23 or younger:

Brooks(20)
Johannsson(23)
Hamid(22)
Boyd(22)
Diskerud(23)
Shea(23)
6 players 23 or younger on current squad.

The USMNT is right in the mean or slightly above the mean with other major National teams. Holland is the outlier.

blaise213
San Francisco CA
Post #234
Tuesday November 12, 2013 10:32pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,364
The best proof to show that jurgen is more concerned about winning friendlies and not trying out new players will be:

Leaving in Tim Howard in the whole time for both games.

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #235
Tuesday November 12, 2013 10:47pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,010
Point conceded to 2tone, good post as usual. I guess just given our clear lack of truly talented wingers I'm perplexed why he wouldn't try something a little different with younger guys that haven't gotten a chance with the team rather than the inconsistent Shea, the old Brad Davis, and the usual Bedoya. Maybe he's content with our wide options for this cycle. Personally I'd like to have any reason to put Fabian back at left back, especially if the combination achieved through him and the subsequent winger made us more threatening than the current Johnson/Beasley side. Granted, if what we hear is true that lichaj may get a look at left back, that would also be interesting to see. Like I said, not upset about this roster, just being a friendly I expected a little different approach to it, but then again Klinnsman likes to make us wonder.

skangles
DC
Post #236
Tuesday November 12, 2013 11:21pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,995
Original post from stone88

Maybe Torres.


Good call. Klinsmann likes him.

Chrisou101
Post #237
Tuesday November 12, 2013 11:33pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 597
Hey im 18 and how come JK hasn't called me up yet?

dolcem
Post #238
Wednesday November 13, 2013 3:21am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from rainORshine

i assume you are meaning to say a handful of international games...

not sure how we can say guys who are already having a lot of success in a respectable league (MLS) for sure wont be able to make a positive contribution to USMNT in the next 6 months.

and i think the 'ego' argument is being blown a little out of proportion. we are not talking about teenagers at the IMG academy, we are talking about guys who have put in at least a full season (if not multiple seasons) in a strong professional league

not talking about oneill OVER orozco, im talking about possibly an 8th defender (klute is another option) instead of wondo as a 6th forward

talking about guys like agudelo or rowe as an extra attacking option - both have at least 2 full professional seasons in the books and are coming off productive years - as opposed to a guy who has not played in over a year

ultimately just some points for discussion... does not need to big a big debate


I meant professionally. These guys are about to take a 5 month break. They won't play that much before the World Cup. This isn't a reason not to take them, I'm just countering the idea that some people have that they're going to break out and turn into awesome players before the World Cup. That won't happen. What you see is what you get with these guys. 2015 is a different story.

I don't think the ego thing is blown out of proportion at all because we've seen it happen not to IMG guys but to MLS pros (Adu, EJ, Agudelo, Shea, etc.). Right now Klinsmann wants to send a clear message to American players: you won't get called up to the USNT just for being talented, you need to work your ass off to get there. And I think that's a good message to be sending to these young guys. Having a few good games in the MLS doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things. We're looking for European-caliber players (not that they have to play in Europe, they just have to be that good) and to get a call-up you have to be a very good player. Our young guys need to have that limitless ambition and it's easy to get complacent after playing well in the MLS and then not really improve (Shea). I trust Klinsmann to make these kinds of calls because of his experience as a player and manager.

I agree though that these are minor points for a discussion and not a big argument, and like I said, I totally think Agudelo should've been called up over Wondo. But some people here think it's a big deal and I'm mostly responding to them.

Original post from MSantoine

Why are you assuming JK will change at this point? This past Camp Cupcake was just as, if not more critical than the upcoming one. It was the final camp before the hex started as well as before a huge busy summer with gold cup too. Do you know how many U23 guys he brought in? 3. Agudelo, Gatt, & Morales (Mixx was sent home). How can you be so sure hes going to change now? Would you be surprised if most of the same players, Beltran, Morrow, Davis, Beckerman, Bruin were there again? Were you upset when this past camp cupcake he didnt bring in youngsters? If that was the time to do it, and he didnt then what makes you assume he'll do so this time? Also whats different from these friendlys compared to january friendlys? The answer should be nothing.


The point of Camp Cupcake is to bring in guys who are on the bubble. It doesn't matter too much how old they are. Now, I agree that they should lean towards picking younger guys, and maybe last Camp Cupcake had too many veterans, but let's wait and see for this time around. The next two friendlies are for the A team, which does not exclude any deserving young players that aren't on it now (they aren't good enough), with the possible exception of Agudelo. People like Rowe and O'Neill should not be called up for one of these friendlies, especially since they haven't played for the senior team yet (JK, like it or not, brings in guys like these slowly). Their time will come in January.

The thing is though I absolutely do not want to see anyone picked just for being young. Read the previous paragraph I wrote. Giving young MLS kids call-ups often times is poor man-management. The goal of every young player who aspires to be on the USNT should be to make it to Europe. We don't need every player to be playing there but we need ambitious players who want to be stars and want it badder than anything in the world. It's easy to get too big for your britches playing in the MLS, which is pretty isolated in the soccer world, especially because our media and public is dying for the next Adu. You can get lots of favorable press and fans and it can kill your drive to ultimately take the next step in your career (making it for a good team in Europe). Look at what happened to our other good young players who got USNT call-ups at a young age (Adu, Agudelo, Shea, etc.). Those guys are still recovering from the fame hangover.

All I care about right now is Brazil 2014. As far as 2018 goes, Klinsmann has already been preparing us, that's why he did what he did with the U-20's and U-23's. The current crop of young players didn't really have a lot of time in this system. But my guess is that come 2018 things will be much different and there'll be a heavier emphasis on youth. At that point the systems JK instituted at the youth levels will have been in place for a while and he'll feel more comfortable calling up young players.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #239
Wednesday November 13, 2013 7:57am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 308
JK is taking a measured approach to bringing in the younger players. If you asked us all about 5-6 months who we'd like to see, Brooks and AJ would have been on everyone's list...throw in Lichaj...I'm not complaining. You can only bring in a few newbies at a time without ruining the overall continuity.

I'm equally interested in which existing players struggle and begin to play their way off the team. Starting the process of thinning the herd, which might create a need to bring in a player or two early in the year. These are going to be two tough games...Scotland in front of their home fans will be a bone rattler.

MSantoine
Post #240
Wednesday November 13, 2013 1:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from 2tone

Wait so you say anyone that is U-23 is youth then you say 23 is not youth? U-23 means 23 and younger.

Lets look at the best teams i.e. Spain, Germany, Holland, Italy, Argentina, France and Brasil and compare ages:

Spanish players that are in the next two friendlies that are 23 and younger:

Martinez(22)
Moreno(21)
Baartra(22)
Koke(21)
4 Spanish players that are 23 and younger.

German players 23 and younger on current roster:

Kroos(23)
Schurrle(23)
Draxler(20)
Gotze(21)
4 players 23 or younger on the German National team for these upcoming friendlies.

Holland players 23 or younger on current roster. Holland has always served youth so there will probably be quite few:

Martins Indi(21)
DeVrij(21)
Blind(23)
Veltman(21)
Strootman(23)
Fer(23)
Propper(22)
narsingh(23)
Depay(19)

Italian Players 23 or younger:

Florenzi(22)
Balotelli(23)
Insigne(22)
3 players 23 or younger on current roster.

Argentine players 23 or younger:

Rojo(23)
Lamela(21)
2 players 23 or younger on current roster

Brasilian players 23 or younger:

Marquinhos(19)
Oscar(22)
Bernard(21)
Neymar(21)
4 players 23 or younger on current roster.

France

Sakho(23)
Varane(20)
Pogba(20)
Grenier(22)
4 Players 23 or younger for current squad heading to WC qualification game.

USMNT players 23 or younger:

Brooks(20)
Johannsson(23)
Hamid(22)
Boyd(22)
Diskerud(23)
Shea(23)
6 players 23 or younger on current squad.

The USMNT is right in the mean or slightly above the mean with other major National teams. Holland is the outlier.


Belgium:
Courtois (21)
Casteels(21)
Meunior(22)
Hazard(22)
De Bruyne(22)
Lukaku(20)
Bakkali(17)
Benteke(22)
Note Bakkali has played all of 10 professional matches and got a call. Gil is over 60. Most of the young MLSers are at or above 30.

Switzerland:
Shar(21)
Lang(22)
Xhaka(21)
Kasami(21)
Mehmedi(22)
Gavranovic(23)
Seferovic(21)
Drmic(21)
Note lots of those youngsters play in the Swiss league, not exactly talking about EPL & Primera League Phenoms.

Colombia
Medina(21)
Arias(21)
Balanta(20)
Rodriguez(22)
Ibarbo(23)
Muriel(22)
Most play in Non-Brazil South American leagues.

England
Walker(23)
Jones(21)
Smalling(23)
Wilshire(21)
Henderson(23)
Townsend(22)
Barkley (19)
13 Players on roster have less than 10 caps.

Those three countries are perfect examples of what you should be doing. Belgium and Colombia are up and coming nations trying to break through the stranglehold the big 6 countries have had. England realizes they are in a transition so they are bringing in some young guys to try to expedite their process. Townsend in particular has 2 career caps. If England had the US thought process he'd be too inexperienced to bring along. In reality he'll probably start for them in Brazil barring injury.

The only way to gain experience is to play. Best time to do that is friendlys. Other countries do this. Other countries are better than us. We should probably be doing this too.

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