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tylercocinas
Post #16
Thursday September 26, 2013 7:44pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 696
The 2010 defense perhaps has a critical edge in terms of experience which helps immensely, but this defense is miles ahead in talent. Give this defense the experience of the previous corps and Backline-2010 gets blown out of the water with ease.

admsghs27
Post #17
Thursday September 26, 2013 8:16pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,890
I would like to point out, this is the most competitive concacaf has been maybe in history, except for Mexico, but hey they are still Mexico, and could rise up any moment. There is more Talent and and overall better quality from all teams, They all compete.. So to have 5 Clean sheets is PHENOMENAL and we still have 2 games remaining.. Nowhere in the world will a team achieved that percentage of clean sheets throughout a world cup qualifying campaign..

MSantoine
Post #18
Thursday September 26, 2013 8:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,020
Original post from admsghs27

So to have 5 Clean sheets is PHENOMENAL and we still have 2 games remaining.. Nowhere in the world will a team achieved that percentage of clean sheets throughout a world cup qualifying campaign..


Welcome to soccer. You must never have watched soccer before to make this kind of blatantly wrong statement.

2010 WCQ:
Denmark- 6 clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Portugal- 7 Clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Slovenia- 6 in 10 games
Germany-7 in 10 games
Ukraine- 6 in 10 games
Netherlands-6 in 8 games
Australia- 7 in 8 games
Cameroon-4 in 6 games
Ghana-4 in 6 games

2014 WCQ
Mexico-5 in 8 games
CR-4 in 8 games
Congo-4 in 6 games
Iran-6 in 8 games
Belgium- 6 in 8 games
Netherlands-5 in 8 games
Switzerland-6 in 8 games (0 GA in away games)
Greece-6 in 8 games
England- 5 in 8 games
Spain- 4 in 6 games

Nothing historic about our defense. Not even the best defense in the CONCACAF.

admsghs27
Post #19
Thursday September 26, 2013 9:09pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,890
Original post from MSantoine

Welcome to soccer. You must never have watched soccer before to make this kind of blatantly wrong statement.

2010 WCQ:
Denmark- 6 clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Portugal- 7 Clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Slovenia- 6 in 10 games
Germany-7 in 10 games
Ukraine- 6 in 10 games
Netherlands-6 in 8 games
Australia- 7 in 8 games
Cameroon-4 in 6 games
Ghana-4 in 6 games

2014 WCQ
Mexico-5 in 8 games
CR-4 in 8 games
Congo-4 in 6 games
Iran-6 in 8 games
Belgium- 6 in 8 games
Netherlands-5 in 8 games
Switzerland-6 in 8 games (0 GA in away games)
Greece-6 in 8 games
England- 5 in 8 games
Spain- 4 in 6 games

Nothing historic about our defense. Not even the best defense in the CONCACAF.


We have 2 games left so that would mean 7 in 10 games... And Many of those opponents of those teams in europe are garbage their not even in the top 100.. Example faroe islands, macedonia, wales, armenia, malta, kazakahstan, andorra cyprus, san marino, latvia, maldova, belarus ext ext ext... Even in Africa many teams are not top 80... Any concacaf team in the hex would massacre most of those teams listed.. I think if you put usa in a few of those groups in europe qualifying they could probably get upwards of 10 clean sheets, group F for one..

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #20
Thursday September 26, 2013 9:57pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,810
Original post from MSantoine

Im not arguing our defense is better or worse than 2010 but I have to debunk your reason for defending them. The fact that we have more clean sheets and given up fewer goals does not mean our defense is better. Heres why.

In 2010 hex there were an average of 2.88 goals scored per game. This cycle its 1.88.
In 2010 we scored 19 goals, this cycle we have 10.

It seems like in general every team is bunkering in and playing for the 1-0 win or 0-0 draw. It tends to make defensive stats look much better. You also have to take into consideration who the mf were in both cycles (we have Jones & MB instead of guys like Clark). That also plays a factor.

(I personally think our defense is better anyways as guys like Brooks, Fab, Chandler have better pedigrees than the 2010 group)


This is a more competitive HEX then 2010 hence the lower goals scored per game.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #21
Thursday September 26, 2013 10:01pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,810
Original post from dolcem

First of all, our CB's last time were better. And one thing that worries some of us is that therre hasn't been a replacement for Bocanegra. One of the CB's needs o be a leader who can organize a defense. That used to be Boanegra and we don't have that guy anymore.

The Hex is not really indicative of how these guys will do against quality opposition (and let's not forget that we let in 11 goals in our last three matches against European teams).

I hope to God Johnson plays LB because Beasley would get torn to shreds by good wingers. Cameron, even though he's not really the type of fullback we want, will probably be our RB (Chandler isn't in the picture yet, Lichaj would also get torn to shreds by good wingers as he always has, and Dolo is on the wrong side of some knee problems and the age of 34), which means our choices at CB are Gonzo, Goodson, Besler, and maybe Brooks.

Gonzo is good for when we're bunkering down but besides that is inconsistent (and consistency is everything for CB's). He is good for at least a mistake or two every game and will really get taken advantage of by top teams. Other than his height he doesn't have a lot going for him. And he isn't a good fit for the high line and style Klinsmann wants us to play.

Goodson is similar to Gonzo and we have seen that he struggles against quality oppositiom. He's an MLS/Scandinavian league caliber player and, like Gonzo, will get exposed by the high line.

Besler is a little better but he is also a bit mistake prone and his positioning isn't always the best, especially in one on one situations. He and Gonzo are totally inexperienced at playing against good attacking teams.

Brooks isn't from our system (and thus might not play well with us) and is very green. Apparently he's not very good in the air yet despite his height. We'll see how he does this year if he gets cap-tied but JK is pretty slow to integrate players and he might not want to mess with the Gonzo/Besler combo. We need to find a CB pairing and stick with it so they get a lot of experience together.

Not sure about Orozco but I thnk he, too, would be exposed against top teams. And again, we don't want to tinker too much.

I always wanted to see Edu given another chance at CB but he doesn't get any club PT.

So we're probably going to have two MLS CB's as our starters. It's the one position I really prefer to have European based players. Not to knock MLS but the MLS players tend to be a bit more mistake-prone because the pace and style of international play (at the highest level that is, not CONCACAF) is so different than what they're used to. Playing CB is all about reading the game and timing, an because of the completely different speed of the game, chances are an MLS guy without much experience at that level is going to make a mitake or two. Against top teams, that means a goal or two, which we won't be able to afford. I's not just that though, mostly the fact that Gonzo or Goodson will start for us, paired with Besler, is what terrifies me. I'm praying Dolo recovers or Chandler gets his head on straight so we can at least move Cameron into the middle.

You can point to our good defensive record recently (only against CONCACAF teams) but that has to do more with Klinsmann's abilities as a manager than the quality of our defense because, frankly, it's a weak spot.


Zero concrete evidence.

Bocanegra, DeMerit, and Gooch gave up more goals(13) and had fewer clean sheets in the 2009 HEX. How in the world can you claim the CB's were better?

You have given zero evidence that the defense is a weak spot.

Should we look at how many goals the 2009 team gave up to quality non-CONCACAF opponents. That defensive minded team gave up 9 goals in the confederations cup. That team was strictly defend slash counter and they still gave up 9 goals.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #22
Thursday September 26, 2013 10:15pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,810
Original post from MSantoine

Welcome to soccer. You must never have watched soccer before to make this kind of blatantly wrong statement.

2010 WCQ:
Denmark- 6 clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Portugal- 7 Clean sheets in 10 WCQ games
Slovenia- 6 in 10 games
Germany-7 in 10 games
Ukraine- 6 in 10 games
Netherlands-6 in 8 games
Australia- 7 in 8 games
Cameroon-4 in 6 games
Ghana-4 in 6 games

2014 WCQ
Mexico-5 in 8 games
CR-4 in 8 games
Congo-4 in 6 games
Iran-6 in 8 games
Belgium- 6 in 8 games
Netherlands-5 in 8 games
Switzerland-6 in 8 games (0 GA in away games)
Greece-6 in 8 games
England- 5 in 8 games
Spain- 4 in 6 games

Nothing historic about our defense. Not even the best defense in the CONCACAF.


USMNT 5 clean sheets in 8, 6 conceded goals= Best defense in CONCACAF

Mexico 5 clean sheets in 8, 7 conceded goals

Costa Rica 4 clean sheets in 8, 5 conceded goals

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #23
Thursday September 26, 2013 10:21pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,810
Original post from tylercocinas

The 2010 defense perhaps has a critical edge in terms of experience which helps immensely, but this defense is miles ahead in talent. Give this defense the experience of the previous corps and Backline-2010 gets blown out of the water with ease.


I agree the 2014 defense has more talent, and the stats have shown that to be the case.

admsghs27
Post #24
Thursday September 26, 2013 10:28pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,890
2018 Defense will be much better all those players experienced and still in a prime age...

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #25
Thursday September 26, 2013 10:32pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,810
Original post from admsghs27

2018 Defense will be much better all those players experienced and still in a prime age...


Yep, The 2018 team across the board is going to be one of if not the most talented USMNT's to date.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #26
Friday September 27, 2013 6:25am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 260
I think there are too many variables that come into play to just count clean sheets or goals given up. Such as relative strength of our roster per game or MB's current level of performance after playing in Italy versus before... he's a dominate influence now.

Our style of play under JK is completely different than BB...we press much higher and our ability to put more pressure on opposing hex defenses has them bunkering and trying to counter. Which really cuts down on the pressure our D faces. There have been games where our back line hasn't had much to deal with. Whereas previous back lines under BB might be under siege and have 3 times as much to deal with and end up leaking a goal or two.

I agree with Tyler, the current back line is an upgrade in talent.... but they haven't been blooded in a world cup. We can't infer they will be more successful at a WC based on Hex performance.

MSantoine
Post #27
Friday September 27, 2013 12:05pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,020
Original post from admsghs27

We have 2 games left so that would mean 7 in 10 games... And Many of those opponents of those teams in europe are garbage their not even in the top 100.. Example faroe islands, macedonia, wales, armenia, malta, kazakahstan, andorra cyprus, san marino, latvia, maldova, belarus ext ext ext... Even in Africa many teams are not top 80... Any concacaf team in the hex would massacre most of those teams listed.. I think if you put usa in a few of those groups in europe qualifying they could probably get upwards of 10 clean sheets, group F for one..


Netherlands in 2010 had a group with teams ranked 33,49,54, & 82. When the hex started the teams we've shutout are ranked 15, 46, 58,59, 66. Looks pretty similar to me. Switzerland has shutout teams ranked 12, 22, 59, & 80. You can say they have had a good defenst but relax with the greatest ever, or historic, or that crap. You just sound like a buffoon when you say things like that.

MSantoine
Post #28
Friday September 27, 2013 12:13pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,020
Original post from 2tone

This is a more competitive HEX then 2010 hence the lower goals scored per game.


Being more competitive shouldnt drop the goal rate that drastically. UEFA is arguably the most competitive ever (many pot 3 & 4 teams will qualify this time around) and the goals per game is almost identical. 2.71 in 2010, 2.73 in 2014. In Asian it went from 2.03 in 2010 to 2.15 in 2014. CONMEBOL went from 2.54 to 2.73 even though Brazil, the highest scoring team usually isnt in it and teams like Ecuador, Colombia, and Venezuela are competitive for the first time since 94-98. Those other big 3 federations (CAF changed their format so its hard to compare) stayed pretty similar, and actually all 3 slightly rose. CONCACAF went down by a goal more per game. Its not becuase its more competitive its because every team is packing it in. You cant go by the hex stats from last cycle to this. Its comparing apples to oranges.

rainORshine
Post #29
Friday September 27, 2013 3:50pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
i am pretty concerned about the defense and i think there is some tangible evidence that it is not great.

what are the 5 most talented teams / toughest games US has played in 2013?
begium - 4 goals conceded
@ costa rica - 3
bosnia - 3
germany - 3
@ honduras - 2

in 5 toughest games averaging 3 goals conceded per game

you can weigh that against bunch of shutouts at home v CONCACAF teams but FOR ME that is plenty of evidence to be concerned

thought dolcem did a nice job characterizing the CB options and thought that msantoine's point about HEX being very low scoring in general (for whatever reason) is also relevant.

basically gonzo, goodson and besler are above average MLS CBs. good enough to pitch shut-outs v CONCACAF at home, but i kind of doubt good enough to win a round of 16 game against a high quality WC opponent (if they can get through group).

i think that is just being realistic. nothing JK can really do about this one. his options are just limited

between fabian, cameron and chandler i think OB options are very strong

richieJkulesaNY
Post #30
Friday September 27, 2013 4:56pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 913
you guys and your stats, its mind numbing to read and break down.

Anyways, looking at the players alone, I would say the 2010s were better. The 4-4-2 counter-attack style of play wasnt the ideal strategy, but we didnt have the CM to play any other way.

What the 2014 defenders have going for them is a better overall balance of play from the team. We play a higher line now, we press in the opponents own half. The 4-2-3-1 has helped our defense tremendously.

So i get the clean sheets belong to the goalies and defenders, but the CM and outside mids have played an important role in the overall scheme.

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