RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
dolcem
Post #136
Sunday December 29, 2013 2:08am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from USnLFCfan

Dolcem- Disagree, sure there are a ton of English club academies that aren't great considering the amount of them across all levels but to say it in a blanket statement is a bit naive. West Ham, Liverpool, Manchester United, and Arsenal are acknowledged across the world as top academies, even League One side Crewe gets respect.


Of course not every academy in England is shite, I was making a polemical, blanket statement (unfortunately, it's the only way to get heard on the internet these days). The best ones are Leeds, West Ham, and ManU. But when was the last time a good player came out of one of those academies (not including overhyped English players like Cleverley, I'm talking about players who have proven themselves at the highest level)? As for Arsenal, I don't include them as an 'English' academy because they teach their youngsters to play continental football. Liverpool is trying to teach their kids the Spanish style, and Arsenal and Liverpool are also very much committed to developing young talent, which is just as important. I'd love to see American kids play at Liverpool or Arsenal's academies but aside from those two, I don't want any of them going to other English academies. If I remember correctly one of our brightest prospects is at Fulham's academy, why on earth would you go to Fulham's academy and not an academy in Spain, Holland, Germany, Argentina, etc. or just play for an MLS academy. We need to try to steer our kids elsewhere but everyone involved in US soccer is so in love with English football they don't realize there are better places to learn the game.
GET A CLUB TEAM
EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #137
Sunday December 29, 2013 2:56am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,118
Did anyone name Southampton? They'd have to be in a top 3 for academies.

But just hope Holmes keeps doing what he's doing. The manager and players obviously love the kid.

admsghs27
Post #138
Sunday December 29, 2013 3:13am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
I think the top 5 countires in th world to develop from ages say 10-18.

1. Brazil
2. Argentina
3. Holland
4. Spain
5. Italy

admsghs27
Post #139
Sunday December 29, 2013 3:33am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 6,060
Bit of a change on the list. Germany #2. Then from the bottom the same, Argentina, Holland, Spain, Italy. and 5 yrs from now I would have to put USA in the top 5.

tylercocinas
Post #140
Sunday December 29, 2013 3:40am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1,151
Original post from dolcem

Of course not every academy in England is shite, I was making a polemical, blanket statement (unfortunately, it's the only way to get heard on the internet these days). The best ones are Leeds, West Ham, and ManU. But when was the last time a good player came out of one of those academies (not including overhyped English players like Cleverley, I'm talking about players who have proven themselves at the highest level)? As for Arsenal, I don't include them as an 'English' academy because they teach their youngsters to play continental football. Liverpool is trying to teach their kids the Spanish style, and Arsenal and Liverpool are also very much committed to developing young talent, which is just as important. I'd love to see American kids play at Liverpool or Arsenal's academies but aside from those two, I don't want any of them going to other English academies. If I remember correctly one of our brightest prospects is at Fulham's academy, why on earth would you go to Fulham's academy and not an academy in Spain, Holland, Germany, Argentina, etc. or just play for an MLS academy. We need to try to steer our kids elsewhere but everyone involved in US soccer is so in love with English football they don't realize there are better places to learn the game.


No disrespect but how do you know what Emerson Hyndman is learning at Fulham? How are any of us in any position to say that someone should have gone to one academy over another? One must go where the opportunities are, so if on the off chance no Dutch, Spanish, etc. academies are offering a player the chance to join, you have to do what you have to do.

dolcem
Post #141
Sunday December 29, 2013 5:53am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
[quote]Original post from tylercocinas

No disrespect but how do you know what Emerson Hyndman is learning at Fulham? How are any of us in any position to say that someone should have gone to one academy over another? One must go where the opportunities are, so if on the off chance no Dutch, Spanish, etc. academies are offering a player the chance to join, you have to do what you have to do.[/quote

None taken, and you are correct in that I am discussing matters of which I know little. But what I will say is this: the English academies don't have a good recent record of developing talent (shit national team, and under 40% of starting XI's in the Premier League are English; even the managers are foreign!), and perhaps more importantly, the amount of money involved means youngsters get less of a chance. There is a lot of pressure to win immediately at all costs in England, and because of the financial strength of English clubs (especially with that new TV deal) it makes more sense for them to buy established talent rather than develop it. Also, the style of play in England is so physical and fast-paced that it isn't a good place to learn as a youngster, especially for attacking players. Maybe some of these kids would be better off staying in MLS academies, where at least they will stand out (and can learn the American system).

And of course if you're a kid you get an offer from a place like Fulham, you're going to take it. What I wonder though is why so many Americans end up in English academies as opposed to those of other countries...kids like Hyndman are certainly talented enough to play for a youth academy in a different league, so why do they rarely end up there? I'm no expert but my guess is that this is because the American system is so oriented towards England...I bet our scouting networks are most closely tied to English clubs and that coaches try to send their best to English academies rather than to those of other countries.

I'm not an expert on this but what other explanation is there? I don't think it's footbalistic because at that age they do not have such a well-defined style and, more importantly, these kids could certainly end up in Germany as opposed to England. We need to stop being such anglophiles at all levels of the game.

[quote]Original post from admsghs27

I think the top 5 countires in th world to develop from ages say 10-18.

1. Brazil
2. Argentina
3. Holland
4. Spain
5. Italy

Bit of a change on the list. Germany #2. Then from the bottom the same, Argentina, Holland, Spain, Italy. and 5 yrs from now I would have to put USA in the top 5.[/quote]

Good list, but don't you think France would be better than Italy? Look at the players that Ligue 1 exports these days (especially to the PL), and in terms of raw talent, the French NT is definitely superior to Italy...I think Italian soccer is in decline. I would also put Portugal above Italy...it is a tiny country that has produced some of the best players of the past two decades (Rui Costa, Figo, Ronaldo and plenty more, enough to fill one of the most consistent national teams of the past decade).
GET A CLUB TEAM
hamsamwich
Post #142
Sunday December 29, 2013 8:41am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,143
@ Dolcem -

The young kids in England develop in the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2 for the money reasons you just mentioned above. Its just hard to make it into the EPL because of the money they can pay top talent. I'm no England lover mind you, and I agree there are other countries that do it better, but the English system develops talent just fine, and they have plenty of good players. Its just that globalism has allowed other countries to catch up relatively, and since the top league in England pays the most, it has the most competition for places as you stated above. However, the young kids do play in the lower divisions, which is exactly what Holmes is doing now, proving it on the pitch. You mention Ronaldo, who it can be argued actually developed at Man U (like the Januzaj guy now) so I believe this is all just a circular argument. Switzerland, Belgium, Mexico also have good youth systems. I think you are also incorrect as I believe most of our young foreign based players are at academies in Mexico and Germany, not England.

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #143
Sunday December 29, 2013 3:18pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,410
No one would argue C-Ronaldo that he delevoped at United, that would be mostly Sporting CP. The only thing United did was give him games to progress as a player, Sporting CP gave him the tools.

hamsamwich
Post #144
Sunday December 29, 2013 3:48pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,143
Original post from USnLFCfan

No one would argue C-Ronaldo that he delevoped at United, that would be mostly Sporting CP. The only thing United did was give him games to progress as a player, Sporting CP gave him the tools.
Perhaps we need to define the "developmental" age, I assumed there is/was a consensus its the years 16-23 in most countries, so I guess for him its both. My only point was that getting games is developing, obviously he is Portuguese and grew up there, but playing against good competition is what made him great. And I'm not an English leagues blowhard, just saying its not like England is some horrible place for soccer.

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #145
Sunday December 29, 2013 4:10pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,410
I would say the US is probably around that age because we are behind in that area....but everywhere else especially Europe, the age is more 12-18. Even the majority of the managers say most players (in their academies)need to be getting games by 18/19, which is why they try to loan out their best players. There is a difference btw development and progression as a player...getting games is more the latter.

Mojofc
Post #146
Sunday December 29, 2013 5:45pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 966
Subbed in at 76'
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
dfw_fan
DfW
Post #147
Sunday December 29, 2013 5:55pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 999
Original post from Mojofc

Subbed in at 76'


Broadcast anywhere? didnt find any online streams

dolcem
Post #148
Sunday December 29, 2013 8:27pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
First of all, I'm going to say GREAT discussion guys, and I'm glad someone is talking about this. I think most fans would rather see American kids in the English academies and leagues ASAP rather than in those of other leagues without even giving it a second thought. I think the other difference they see is the level of competition, which makes them think England is the best place (yet another misconception, you don't want a youngster in too competitive an environment).

Original post from hamsamwich

@ Dolcem -

The young kids in England develop in the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2 for the money reasons you just mentioned above. Its just hard to make it into the EPL because of the money they can pay top talent. I'm no England lover mind you, and I agree there are other countries that do it better, but the English system develops talent just fine, and they have plenty of good players. Its just that globalism has allowed other countries to catch up relatively, and since the top league in England pays the most, it has the most competition for places as you stated above. However, the young kids do play in the lower divisions, which is exactly what Holmes is doing now, proving it on the pitch. You mention Ronaldo, who it can be argued actually developed at Man U (like the Januzaj guy now) so I believe this is all just a circular argument. Switzerland, Belgium, Mexico also have good youth systems. I think you are also incorrect as I believe most of our young foreign based players are at academies in Mexico and Germany, not England.


Here is where I'm going to disagree with you. If the English system developed talent 'just fine,' you would have more good English players rather than fewer than 40% of the starters in the Prem (and some would play abroad, too). La Liga and the Bundesliga are just about as competitive as the EPL and they have way more domestic players. But the national team is where you see the differences. The English NT is just a big step below Spain and Germany, and still below countries like Argentina. This is proof that they don't develop good talent. Part of it is financial (they have the incentive to buy players rather than develop them) but I think the style of play is the biggest factor. Playing fast, physical, route one soccer does not develop good players (this includes the Championship and League One). You could never get a Messi or a Xavi playing that way. The other thing I take issue with is the rest of the world 'catching up.' This is the Anglocentric thinking I am referring to: the rest of the world didn't 'catch up' because England was never in front. They've never really been that great at soccer. The EPL was a step below Italy and Spain until VERY recently (OK, during the noughties, you had that big 4, but aside from that, the league was shite). Continental football, both at the club and international level, traditionally has been better. The only reason the EPL is (arguably) the best league right now is sheer purchasing power.

Original post from USnLFCfan

No one would argue C-Ronaldo that he delevoped at United, that would be mostly Sporting CP. The only thing United did was give him games to progress as a player, Sporting CP gave him the tools.


Original post from hamsamwich

Perhaps we need to define the "developmental" age, I assumed there is/was a consensus its the years 16-23 in most countries, so I guess for him its both. My only point was that getting games is developing, obviously he is Portuguese and grew up there, but playing against good competition is what made him great. And I'm not an English leagues blowhard, just saying its not like England is some horrible place for soccer.


Original post from USnLFCfan

I would say the US is probably around that age because we are behind in that area....but everywhere else especially Europe, the age is more 12-18. Even the majority of the managers say most players (in their academies)need to be getting games by 18/19, which is why they try to loan out their best players. There is a difference btw development and progression as a player...getting games is more the latter.


As far as the England vs. Portugal argument on Ronaldo, I think you guys are both right. First of all, the 16-23 age doesn't work because a lot of guys go pro by 16. Up until they go pro (around 17 maybe) is a measure of how good the academy system is at developing talent, and after they go pro shows how good the league can polish that talent. When Ronaldo came to ManU, he was a well-established 19 year old Sporting product (a great academy that produced players like Figo) who had just carried the Portuguese NT to the Euro final, their best tournament since '66. However, some of his development was in England, because going from that type of player to a world class player does count. Credit should be given to SAF, and this is proof that the EPL CAN develop good players. However, I do think Ronaldo would have turned out to be an even better player had he gone to Spain first (in England his game became so direct and if you really watch closely, you'll notice that he has to use pace rather than skill to get by defenders). More importantly, players like Ronaldo are the exception rather than the rule...La Liga, the Bundesliga, and the other five leagues I mentioned have a MUCH better track record at developing players (especially at the academy level).

So we should strive to send our young talent at all ages to other leagues. For an older, well-established defensive player like Geoff Cameron, the EPL is the best fit. For someone like Juan Agudelo, Brek Shea, or some 14 year old kid, an EPL club/academy is not a good idea considering the other options available.
GET A CLUB TEAM
dolcem
Post #149
Monday December 30, 2013 8:01am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
In case anyone misinterpreted me, of course Holmes might turn out to be really good, and the best well to tell is "the eye test." My point was just that the results as far as English youth academies right now are not nearly as good as for those of other nations. But this doesn't mean that Holmes could be a great player for us...there are a lot of English players out there we could use, and there is a a chance one could turn out to be a great player. But as BShredder said, with teenagers it's too early to get excited about them until they are getting significant PT at the club level (Arriola).
GET A CLUB TEAM
bbakerxyz
Post #150
Monday December 30, 2013 8:46pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
A lot of you guys keep discounting language and culture. A big reason why many of us native English speakers watch the EPL over, say, La Liga is due to language and cultural affinity. It's not necessarily because we think the EPL is superior to La Liga.

Same goes for the attraction to England, Norway, Scotland, etc. for some of our boys - all else being equal, it's an easier transition to play in some godforsaken place like Ipswich vs. Valencia.

Page 10 of 22
«« First « Previous 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14  Next » Last »»

With Jesse Marsch and David Wagner at the helms of teams in the top flight, YA will cover their exploits this season.
RECENT POSTS
YA Transfer Tracker
Yanks Face Relegation in England
Tale of Two Young Yanks in Europe
Wagner Nears Premier League Goal