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Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #1
Monday September 16, 2013 7:19am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 277
We have qualified for the World Cup and many are speculating that Klinsman will do a lot of experimenting with the last 2 qualifiers. I don't believe he will do as much experimenting as most people assume. Klinsman is a fierce competitor and does not like to lose. I also believe that the players and fans want to finish 1st in the Hex. If we do finish in 1st it will be the third Hex in a row we have done so. That would be quite a statement about our team. So my question is; How important is winning the Hex?

chillguy1992
Post #2
Monday September 16, 2013 8:16am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 446
Somewhat important with the way the hex is set up I could see the United States ending up on 20 points and still finishing first. Which would mean a jamaica win and then a draw on the road against panama. I could see us even fielding a b team and still being able to get 4 points in qualifying. For example jamaica is pretty much out however they are still fighting for the 5th place so my guess is they will be ultra attacking. Which leaves them open to the counterattack which the us will be more then happy to exploit. If we ended up with 20 points and costa rica gets 21 points I say no worries honestly ask anyone who was the best team this hex and its obvious the united states were. Plus I think costa rica ends up drawing or losing in honduras so untied states ends up first with 4 points from the next two games. I think its very important to build depth and get an idea of what players can contribute in the future. So go with a roster similar to the gold cup with fresh faces along with players trying to stake a claim to the 23 to the world cup.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #3
Monday September 16, 2013 10:12am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 277
Original post from chillguy1992
I think its very important to build depth and get an idea of what players can contribute in the future. So go with a roster similar to the gold cup with fresh faces along with players trying to stake a claim to the 23 to the world cup.


I think it is important to build depth as well, but I would only call in guys that I think have a reasonable shot at making the final 23 for Brazil. I would really like to win the Hex and then rub it into the Mexican fans faces. They continue to call themselves the "Giants of Concacaf" and pretend they are the best team. I like tangible evidence that they are not.

MSantoine
Post #4
Monday September 16, 2013 11:53am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,186
The only way its important is if it gets us in the seeded pot. If it doesnt its completely unimportant. Here is the list of UEFA teams that qualified in 2010:

Denmark
England
France
Germany
Greece
Italy
Netherlands
Portugal
Serbia
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Switzerland.

Can you pick out which ones were not group winners without looking it up? No? Then its not important. All that matters is qualifying. This isnt the NFL where coming in first gives you extra home games and byes.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #5
Monday September 16, 2013 12:02pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 277
[quote]Original post from MSantoine

The only way its important is if it gets us in the seeded pot. quote]

I have to disagree with you on this point. Winning the hex does offer some intangible values like confidence, a culture of winning etc.

MSantoine
Post #6
Monday September 16, 2013 12:18pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,186
Original post from Kamphgruppe

I have to disagree with you on this point. Winning the hex does offer some intangible values like confidence, a culture of winning etc.


Really?

In 2010 Brazil won CONMEBOL and got knocked out in the QF. Uruguay needed the playoffs and made a semi final run. We made it just as far as Mexico (Mexico lost to Argentina, we lost to Ghana) despite winning the hex and having an easier knockout opponent. In 2006 we won the group and didnt make the knockout round at all while Mexico made it and lost in extra time to Argentina (Mexico needs to avoid Argentina in knockout rounds). Also in 2006 Serbia won its UEFA group over Spain and proceeded to be the worst team of the tourney (0-3 -8 GD) while Spain made it to the knockout round

There is no proven facts that dominating qualification, or sneaking in is an advantage. Theres a bunch of examples for each side. Its something fans care about 1000x more than the players Im sure.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #7
Monday September 16, 2013 2:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
Some might argue that the "last" place playoff-route team would be the most advantageous, as you'll get a nice warm up game against decent but definitely beatable opposition in New Zealand.

I'm not one of those people, I hope we win out and get a favorable result or two and get seeded. USA 2014!!!

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #8
Monday September 16, 2013 4:29pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,025
It boosts fan egos that's about it.

Know Nothing
Post #9
Monday September 16, 2013 7:15pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 368
Not very important as it appears a remote possibility we will be seeded.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #10
Tuesday September 17, 2013 7:44am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 277
Original post from MSantoine

Really?

In 2010 Brazil won CONMEBOL and got knocked out in the QF. Uruguay needed the playoffs and made a semi final run. We made it just as far as Mexico (Mexico lost to Argentina, we lost to Ghana) despite winning the hex and having an easier knockout opponent. In 2006 we won the group and didnt make the knockout round at all while Mexico made it and lost in extra time to Argentina (Mexico needs to avoid Argentina in knockout rounds). Also in 2006 Serbia won its UEFA group over Spain and proceeded to be the worst team of the tourney (0-3 -8 GD) while Spain made it to the knockout round

There is no proven facts that dominating qualification, or sneaking in is an advantage. Theres a bunch of examples for each side. Its something fans care about 1000x more than the players Im sure.


Yes, really!
I am well aware that 1st place or 4th place in the hex has no real bearing on how well you do at the world cup. In fact I understood your point the first time you posted it! Thanks for the more detailed explanation with examples. I still understand what you're saying.
I don't think you understood me at all. There is a reason when the players walk through the tunnel in Columbus inspirational quotes are written on the walls. It's about a mentality of hard work and perseverance. The United States soccer team is building a culture of winning. Part of a culture of winning is a history of winning. I don't think we should take these last two hex games lightly even though we have already qualified. When the next cycle starts our young players will know we won the last 3 and that is the expectation.

MSantoine
Post #11
Tuesday September 17, 2013 11:32am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,186
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Yes, really!
I am well aware that 1st place or 4th place in the hex has no real bearing on how well you do at the world cup. In fact I understood your point the first time you posted it! Thanks for the more detailed explanation with examples. I still understand what you're saying.
I don't think you understood me at all. There is a reason when the players walk through the tunnel in Columbus inspirational quotes are written on the walls. It's about a mentality of hard work and perseverance. The United States soccer team is building a culture of winning. Part of a culture of winning is a history of winning. I don't think we should take these last two hex games lightly even though we have already qualified. When the next cycle starts our young players will know we won the last 3 and that is the expectation.


I understand that line of thinking. For me the more important thing then winning the group is qualifying with x number of games left. Our goal should always be qualify before the october qualies. Then at some point it can be to qualify before sept qualies. Thats a tangible direction I think is beneficial and shows true power of a country. Netherlands and Spain have seemed to master the early qualification recently, as has Italy and it just strikes teams down when you qualify with ease

rainORshine
Post #12
Tuesday September 17, 2013 12:55pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
at some point - possibly beginning with this cycle - winning the HEX may the difference between getting seed and not getting a seed

you never know what criteria FIFA is going to use - might as well try to take care of any variable within your control

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #13
Tuesday September 17, 2013 1:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
Original post from rainORshine

at some point - possibly beginning with this cycle - winning the HEX may the difference between getting seed and not getting a seed

you never know what criteria FIFA is going to use - might as well try to take care of any variable within your control


That's a good point and one I'd been thinking about after I called CONCACAF a second tier federation...I should clarify and say that we're in a fed. without top tier competition. Mexico is our only peer in the region and they're slipping up, maybe starting to believe the hype...

The "lesser" teams are getting better and providing more and more competition, but it's still not to the level of competition of the top tier feds.

MSantoine
Post #14
Tuesday September 17, 2013 5:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,186
That's a good point and one I'd been thinking about after I called CONCACAF a second tier federation...I should clarify and say that we're in a fed. without top tier competition. Mexico is our only peer in the region and they're slipping up, maybe starting to believe the hype...

The "lesser" teams are getting better and providing more and more competition, but it's still not to the level of competition of the top tier feds.[/quote]

I disagree with this and went back and checked. Going back the last 4 world cups Asia has had only 7 different nations qualify (16% of eligible teams). Africa has had 11 different nations qualify (21%). We've had 6 (17%). South America and Europe are much different at 70% and 51%. But 50% of CONMEBOL & 25% of UEFA are guarenteed to qualify any given year. Id say we are equal to Asia and Africa given the opportunities given to us.

In fact looking at it proportionally, given the total amount of bids given to each confederation is as folows:
Asia: 7 different nations out of 17 possible bids
Africa: 11 out of 21
CONCACAF: 6 out of 13
CONMEBOL 7 out of 18.5
UEFA: 27 out of 56.5.

CONMEBOL is extremely top heavy (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay always make it and Paraguay, Colombia, Ecuador rotate through remaining spots). Every other federation (OFC excluded) sends a comparable amount of new blood, which is usually a sign of mid tier teams breaking through.

It really shows the imbalance when you look at the number that in the last 4 world cups only 13 spots were available for CONCACAF.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #15
Tuesday September 17, 2013 8:02pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
Original post from MSantoine

I disagree with this and went back and checked. Going back the last 4 world cups Asia has had only 7 different nations qualify (16% of eligible teams). Africa has had 11 different nations qualify (21%). We've had 6 (17%). South America and Europe are much different at 70% and 51%. But 50% of CONMEBOL & 25% of UEFA are guarenteed to qualify any given year. Id say we are equal to Asia and Africa given the opportunities given to us.

In fact looking at it proportionally, given the total amount of bids given to each confederation is as folows:
Asia: 7 different nations out of 17 possible bids
Africa: 11 out of 21
CONCACAF: 6 out of 13
CONMEBOL 7 out of 18.5
UEFA: 27 out of 56.5.

CONMEBOL is extremely top heavy (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay always make it and Paraguay, Colombia, Ecuador rotate through remaining spots). Every other federation (OFC excluded) sends a comparable amount of new blood, which is usually a sign of mid tier teams breaking through.

It really shows the imbalance when you look at the number that in the last 4 world cups only 13 spots were available for CONCACAF.


I think we're trying to make two different points. My point was that we shouldn't get a seed solely by virtue of winning the Hex, but that it should goes toward the calculation. For example, take UEFA...winning your group in UEFA should could more than us winning the Hex, because of the level of competition...same with CONMEBOL. Granted, the disparity in quality is something that should also be taken into account, but winning one's group in qualifying should definitely count for something.

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